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Old 06-04-2007, 01:56 PM   #21
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I don't think most people are that naive. I know quite a few non-Americans who idolize the US, but who aren't particularly fond of the government. I also know a lot of non-Japanese who quite like the country (culture, history, what have you) of Japan, but not the government. Ditto the UK. China. Ireland. Israel. Australia. Indonesia. Singapore. Peru. Ethiopia. France. Probably most places, come to think of it.
Having spent more than a decade working in both Europe and a few countries that are considered "third world," I do think that many, many people are exactly that naive.
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Old 06-04-2007, 01:59 PM   #22
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[quote=travelover;522456][quote=SamHouston;522395]What I meant was that Al Gore has turned it all into a political tool for his personal gain, a way to stay "relevant" while out of office, etc., a way to stay in the media, and especially a way to stay in good with the Hollywood crowd and an anti-American Europe. Much like Michael Moore, Gore has become a tool of those who love to hate this country.

I don't agree that Hollywood, Al Gore or Michael Moore hate America or are tools of hate mongers. I do believe that they present the liberal perspective, as is their right. Corporations and foreign governments spend heavily through lobbyists and advertising to influence public opinion and US law, as is their right. IMO, it is every citizen's obligation to be fully informed and make their own decisions.
quote]
I don't believe that Al Gore hates this country.

I do believe that Hollywood and Michael Moore are thinking about their wallets and not what is best for their country. I sincerely believe that much of the anti-Americanism that we see around the world today is the product of buzzards like Moore and Hollywood producers. Moore is practically a god in France because of the way that he promotes what he sees as the failings of this country, however he has to twist the data to make his case.
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Old 06-04-2007, 03:00 PM   #23
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well, that's certainly an interesting way to look at it. does anyone look at what global warming means, practically?
for instance, global warming = oceans rising = less land (correct me if I'm wrong here). it also = bye-bye manhattan. not to trivialize other parts of the world, like many of the lovely (but quite low) islands of the bahamas dissappearing, but manhatten going away would be a bit nuts, in terms of where is all that industry & what-not going to end up? the actual mechanical of relocating, say, wall street seem a bit crazy to me.

then we'd have to think about things like growing crops. I read an article somewhere about how they're having to rezone the growing areas in the US, for which plants can grow ok there, which plants need more nurturing, etc, because more & more delicate hot-house plants are being successfully grown farther north. so that means that the crop belts will creep up north (and down south, below the equator). which might be good for some people, but I would think it will be quite bad for others.

oh, and speaking of the equator, if it gets hot enough, won't most of the equator end up a big dessert? that would certainly suck, I think.

although I guess that canada might actually get balmly. the canadians might like that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that global warming sounds like it'd cause a hell of a lot of chaos for pretty much everyone. who knows how it'll effect the food supply? and politics, & governments? and the every-day working-person, who just wants to get through the day...the average human will probably suffer the most. I shudder to think of what certain desperate already-scorched parts of africa will become like, if it gets even hotter.

I'd much rather we didn't play with it at all, & just found a way to stablize the climate, but that's just me.
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Old 06-04-2007, 03:09 PM   #24
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I'd much rather we didn't play with it at all, & just found a way to stablize the climate, but that's just me.
I think we agree on the definition.

And that the problem needs to be minimized as much as possible.

But it, IMO, is being used as much as a political weapon as anything else at this point, a weapon by which some governments in the rest of the world seek to limit economic growth and power in the U.S. That's shameful, but I honestly believe that it is happening.
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Old 06-04-2007, 03:37 PM   #25
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What I meant was that Al Gore has turned it all into a political tool for his personal gain, a way to stay "relevant" while out of office, etc., a way to stay in the media, and especially a way to stay in good with the Hollywood crowd and an anti-American Europe. Much like Michael Moore, Gore has become a tool of those who love to hate this country.

So cynical! I am not so sure. I have no reason to believe that he honestly cares about the global warming issue. Interesting article about him in Time magazine this week: The Last Temptation of Al Gore | TIME

"Our democracy hasn't been working very well—that's my opinion. We've made a bunch of serious policy mistakes. But it's way too simple and way too partisan to blame the Bush-Cheney Administration. We've got checks and balances, an independent judiciary, a free press, a Congress—have they all failed us? Have we failed ourselves?"
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Old 06-04-2007, 03:45 PM   #26
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So cynical! I am not so sure. I have no reason to believe that he honestly cares about the global warming issue. Interesting article about him in Time magazine this week: The Last Temptation of Al Gore | TIME

"Our democracy hasn't been working very well—that's my opinion. We've made a bunch of serious policy mistakes. But it's way too simple and way too partisan to blame the Bush-Cheney Administration. We've got checks and balances, an independent judiciary, a free press, a Congress—have they all failed us? Have we failed ourselves?"
I'm a born cynic, Martha, I admit. I haven't seen the article, but Time Magazine is not on my list of reliable news sources so I probably won't see it.

I'm an equal opportunity cynic, though...I think that both parties have let us down and that they will continue to do so.

As for that Gore statement that you quote...I fully agree with it...but he was part of the problem for a long, long time.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:41 PM   #27
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A program on "climate change" produced by WFAA in Dallas...

Search page WFAA.com
I listened/watched to a bit more than half of the TV program on the Internet before going to bed.

What struck me about the program (other than I knew most of the information) was the contrast between the words and the visual.

If you went strictly by what they said it was a pretty balanced show. They spent a lot of time interviewing the former head of the Hurricane center, now the most prominent meteorologist in Texas, who is huge skeptic of man made global warming. So when I was listening to the show while surfing the web it was pretty fair.

However, when I actually watched the show it was a completely different story. For example when they talked about the impact of warming on Texas and said it might cause severe long-term droughts, they showed pictures of parched lands, dying livestock etc. However, when they talked about how global warming may be good for people in Minnesota did they show pictures of blizzards, or late spring storms that killed crops nope, just a talking head.

The same thing when talking about the the 2005 and 2006 hurricane season, the visuals showed Katrina's devestation. The hurricane expert made the point that hurricanes were natually cyclical, that it was unlikely that 2005 was impacted by man-made climate change, and then pointed out that 2006 no hurricanes hit the US. Did the illustrated the mild 2006 season by showing pictures of girls in bikinis in Miami enjoying the beach, nope just a talking head.

And so it went, bad news about climate change scary visuals, good news old guy talking.
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Old 06-05-2007, 01:18 PM   #28
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So what are we going to do as a species when the sun stars to fade and consumes the planets out to Mars. Blame one party or the other? Or better yet CO2 build up.
I'm sure if ther are humans left of on the planet when it stars they will be trying to figure out how they were at fault for it.
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Old 06-05-2007, 01:48 PM   #29
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i don't know where i heard it - but some scientist somewhere were saying that regardless of what you think of global warming - the fact of the matter is - that whatever we do now will not mitigate the trend enough - and that we will have to adapt. so no matter if you think it is man made or not, there will be some adapting to do...
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:57 AM   #30
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Having spent more than a decade working in both Europe and a few countries that are considered "third world," I do think that many, many people are exactly that naive.
I agree. I have also worked in other countries and I think NIMBY reigns supreme. Even within the US there is fear and distrust among regions ("I hate New York", "Don't get me started on Californians" etc,).

I used to be shocked at the negative attitudes of the average Malaysian about the US even though they had never been there. OTOH the ones that went there to school all wanted to stay.
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:12 AM   #31
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i don't know where i heard it - but some scientist somewhere were saying that regardless of what you think of global warming - the fact of the matter is - that whatever we do now will not mitigate the trend enough - and that we will have to adapt. so no matter if you think it is man made or not, there will be some adapting to do...
The reason the IPCC report was toned down is because there is a consensus that there will be a climate change crisis no matter what actions we take. Yet if that was the conclusion being spouted by politicians (including Michael Moore and Al Gore), we would tend to want actions that mitigate the effects rather than draconian futile attempts to alter the course.

How about a water pipeline from the northern Rockies? Some new dikes and locks?
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Old 06-06-2007, 11:26 AM   #32
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while i completely appreciate a healthy dose of cynicism, when i look to see who profits most from the likes of (or from having caused) global warming, anti-americanism and general unrest in the world, following the money does not bring my eye to the wallets of the likes of hollywood and michael moore. i don't know precisely where it all goes, but i would imagine a few other individuals and industries for that matter profit quite a bit more significantly than just a few entertainers.
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Old 06-06-2007, 02:11 PM   #33
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while i completely appreciate a healthy dose of cynicism, when i look to see who profits most from the likes of (or from having caused) global warming, anti-americanism and general unrest in the world, following the money does not bring my eye to the wallets of the likes of hollywood and michael moore. ....
But, Hollywood and Moore (and Gore for that matter) do not need to profit directly from Global Warming, they can profit simply from the *controversy* surrounding it (and other subjects).

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Old 06-06-2007, 02:12 PM   #34
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But, Hollywood and Moore (and Gore for that matter) do not need to profit directly from Global Warming, they can profit simply from the *controversy* surrounding it (and other subjects).

-ERD50
And, indeed, all of them are.
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Old 06-06-2007, 03:50 PM   #35
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Old 06-06-2007, 04:48 PM   #36
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i don't know where i heard it - but some scientist somewhere were saying that regardless of what you think of global warming - the fact of the matter is - that whatever we do now will not mitigate the trend enough - and that we will have to adapt. so no matter if you think it is man made or not, there will be some adapting to do...
right, as kcowan said, this is from the IPCC. I posted about it earlier (and typo'd *seal level* for *sea level*) at this thread on 5/5/2007:

Climate Change - choice between 13" and 16.5" seal level rise? - Early Retirement Forums

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If I am interpreting the data correctly from the latest IPCC report, it appears that:

If we continue to burn fossil fuel as we have, we will see a 10-23" rise in sea level (16.5" is the middle of that range).

If we move to a non-fossil fuel based system, we will see an 8-18" rise in sea level (13" is the middle of that range).
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:20 PM   #37
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Yes so let's also do something about the 13" rather than blowing our brains out on the extra 3.5". Stop the hysteria and start thinking about overall consequences.

After all the glaciers have melted, there will be many new deserts. What are we doing about that?
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Old 06-08-2007, 09:03 AM   #38
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I guess this is progress, though I wish I could borrow money with a promise to "seriously consider" paying it back.


The United States agreed Thursday to "seriously consider" a European plan to combat global warming by cutting in half greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, averting a trans-Atlantic deadlock at a meeting here of the world's richest industrial nations.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:19 AM   #39
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I guess this is progress, ...

The United States agreed Thursday to "seriously consider" a European plan to combat global warming by cutting in half greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, averting a trans-Atlantic deadlock at a meeting here of the world's richest industrial nations.
Look at the above posts - what exactly would be the effect of cutting greenhouse gas emissions in half? Would that take us from a 16.5" rise in sea level to a 14.75" rise in sea level (half the difference of 3.5")?

I'm all for conservation and reducing pollution, but it appears to be misguided to think that some of these steps are going to 'solve' global warming, or even 'combat' it in any significant way. And those numbers are from the IPCC. People need to get realistic, Global Warming appears to be happening, and cutting greenhouse gases now will not have much impact on it.

Wouldn't it be better to spend the money on adapting to the change rather than throwing money at trying to have a small impact on that change?

It looks like some of the proposed changes could be robbing Peter to pay Paul. Sequester the carbon from coal burning plants? OK, but those plants are 30% less efficient, meaning we will need to mine about 30% more coal to feed them - how much environmental damage does that cause? Be careful what you wish for.

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Old 06-08-2007, 10:26 AM   #40
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What I meant was that Al Gore has turned it all into a political tool for his personal gain, a way to stay "relevant" while out of office, etc., a way to stay in the media...
Gore has been on this issue for many years. In "An Inconvenient Truth" there's video of a very young Gore testifying about global warming. This is not something that started after he lost the election.
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