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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-12-2006, 10:20 AM   #61
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

Anybody have any stats on the severity/expense of these "problems"?

When I go to my little Honda specialist auto shop, I see people (myself included) who have problems like "blown oxygen sensor" or "busted fluid level sensor" (unscrew old part, screw in new part, charge $75 for labor and $200 for the part). Little $200-$300 fixes that take a few hours and that are unquestionably problems.

Then I hear about the GM/Ford folks who have broken transmissions, fuel/water pumps, head gasket leaks, etc. that are much more involved repairs in terms of time and cost and unavailability of the vehicle.

Or the GM/Fords who constantly eat starters, transmissions, brakes, or the alignment constantly goes out, etc. Things that just can't be fixed.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-12-2006, 10:26 AM   #62
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
I find it intersting that many of you are stating American companies only build crap.* Have any of you seen the latest JD Powers vehicle dependability listings.* seven of the top thirteen (all of those above the average) car manufacturers are Amercian owned.* Of the foriegn cars the only one that makes since to me is the Hoda/Acura ratings, that came in one behind the other.* Toyota and Lexus didn't do that.* So in my view I see Toyota has figured out how to build a good car, but wants me to pay thousands more to have it.* once the technology is paid for it shoudl spread to the other lines, but appently not in this case.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...asp?ID=2006133
Interesting point............I could break down each brand and give you the reasons why they rank where they do..........and most JD Power surveys are not as objective as you think. For instance, I would EXPECT a $45,000 Cadillac to be more reliable than a $20,000 Chevy, but if you look at brands like Honda, they pretty much have the SAME quality in the Civic as the Pilot as the Element...etc. etc. NOONE can tell me a Chevy Impala is as high a quality as a Buick..............drive a new one and you'll know what I mean....................
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-12-2006, 10:55 AM   #63
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
Disclaimer: We currently own a Ford truck, Chevy car, and Mazda van...

FYI from Consumer Reports (subscription required to view);

"Using results from the 2001-2005 [auto] surveys, we analyzed how vehicles from six major automakers typically fare as they age. We combined problem rates of one- to eight-year-old cars from each survey year. On average, Toyota and Honda vehicles have far fewer problems than their competitors as they get older. Ford vehicles are closest to the average"




That's interesting. The only thing I wonder is if they consider the use of the vehicles. Since Toyota and Honda are not big in the construction areas, like Ford and GM, it wouldn't really be a fair comparason. My daily driver only gets about 10000 miles of light use per year. A truck, which is where the American companies have made most of their money in the last few years, used in a business would most likely be subjected to harder use.

Moderator Edit: lets-retire, I moved your comments to avoid confusion. Inserting a comment within another poster's quote makes it difficult to understand who is saying what.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-12-2006, 11:08 AM   #64
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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Originally Posted by justin
Anybody have any stats on the severity/expense of these "problems"?*

When I go to my little Honda specialist auto shop, I see people (myself included) who have problems like "blown oxygen sensor" or "busted fluid level sensor" (unscrew old part, screw in new part, charge $75 for labor and $200 for the part).* Little $200-$300 fixes that take a few hours and that are unquestionably problems.*

Then I hear about the GM/Ford folks who have broken transmissions, fuel/water pumps, head gasket leaks, etc. that are much more involved repairs in terms of time and cost and unavailability of the vehicle.*

Or the GM/Fords who constantly eat starters, transmissions, brakes, or the alignment constantly goes out, etc.* Things that just can't be fixed.*
Jack Gillis puts out a book each year called,of all things, "The Car Book".

He tracks not only how often cars break but what it costs to fix the things that do break. He then uses this cost factor along with safety to come up with low-cost and safe car recommendataions.

The surprising thing is that his list is completely different than the Consumer Reports list. The recommended cars vary but tend to the large domestic models.

Looking through the tables in the book you can see that Japanese cars in general do break less. But when they break they often cost quite a bit more to fix than the domestics.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-12-2006, 01:53 PM   #65
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

REWahoo!--Thanks for fixing that. I hadn't intended to include my thoughts in there.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 02:38 PM   #66
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

Consumer Reports surveys are flawed because they only sample people that subscribe to the magazine. Hardly an unbiased sample.

To answer those of you that questioned my buying decisions, yes, I do go out of my way and will pay more to support American companies. I only buy Goodyears tires made in the USA. I only drink Budweiser beer made in the USA. I used to drink Miller beer but now they're SAB Miller (South African Brewers) and are just as bad as Honda. As for my vehicles, the domestic content is right there on the sticker and if I recall the last new Ford I bought was over 90% domestic content. For the record I have 3 Chevrolets and 1 Ford in the stable right now. All great cars.

My part of the country has been hit hard by the loss of manufacturing jobs so quite a few people around here share my feelings. If a politician comes up my driveway, let's say in a Toyota, he'll never get my vote. Of course if he or she is a Democrat they won't get it no matter what but that's another story. Same goes for salesmen. Drive up in an import and you lose my business.

In order to avoid buying new imported products I try very hard to repair what I have already. My 40 year old Toro (USA made) snowblower will get me by for a few more years and I just put a new axle on my (USA made) 25 year old Deere tractor. My electronics are sadly all imported but I'm not going to be buying anything new unless the old TV gives up. Got a 30 year old Realistic receiver still going strong.

Sounds like a lot of you are amazed that ANYONE still buys this way but there are a lot of us around.

All riding Harleys...
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 04:18 PM   #67
 
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

Quote:
, he'll never get my vote. Of course if he or she is a Democrat they won't get it no matter what but that's another story.
god! - I would have never guessed! - I am just shocked! shocked, I tell you!

I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you live in the South too! Although, there seems to be a few of you guys up here in the back woods too,
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 04:23 PM   #68
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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Consumer Reports surveys are flawed because they only sample people that subscribe to the magazine. Hardly an unbiased sample.
I don't understand.

Do you think CR subscribers are more likely to lie about the reliability of their cars than other auto-survey participants? Do you think CR subscribers are more likely to be biased in favor of imports? If so, how do you explain the relatively low ratings of most European and Korean cars? Do you think people who subscribe to a magazine that evaluates product quality and doesn't accept advertising are somehow biased as a group? Why? (Because shoppers who rely on objective testing rather than advertising might be...liberal?)
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 04:24 PM   #69
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

Doc--I understand where you're coming from. *I grew up in Michigan and the town I lived in relied heavily on the Detroit auto workers coming up for hunting, fishing and recreating. *The two largest companies in the area were suppliers of the big three auto companies. *I don't take it as far as you do. *I draw the line at the company has to be American owned, not the product made by an American in the US. *
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 04:28 PM   #70
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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Originally Posted by astromeria
I don't understand.

Do you think CR subscribers are more likely to lie about the reliability of their cars than other auto-survey participants? Do you think CR subscribers are more likely to be biased in favor of imports? If so, how do you explain the relatively low ratings of most European and Korean cars? Do you think people who subscribe to a magazine that evaluates product quality and doesn't accept advertising are somehow biased as a group? Why? (Because shoppers who rely on objective testing rather than advertising might be...liberal?)
Using a subscriber list is inherently biased. The very poor don't have the money to subscribe to the magazine so they are effectively left out. The.....uh......exceptionally frugal go to the library to read the magazine. Many people only buy the magazine for a review of something they are currently looking at buying. It is the same reason the large sampling companies don't rely on the phone book for the names of people to survey.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 04:37 PM   #71
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
Using a subscriber list is inherently biased. The very poor don't have the money to subscribe to the magazine so they are effectively left out. The.....uh......exceptionally frugal go to the library to read the magazine.
Hmmmm. The very poor don't have the money to own a car. The...uh...exceptionally frugal likely don't buy new cars, preferring to allow someone else to foot the bill for the first 2-3 years of deprecitation.

Since CR asks that subscribers only return their auto reliability surveys on cars they purchased new, I don't see where the poor or frugal would be asked to respond in any event.

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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 04:48 PM   #72
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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I draw the line at the company has to be American owned, not the product made by an American in the US.
So, you are careful to support American management, but not American workers? Somehow I don;t think that will save a lot of jobs in Michigan!

Personally, I like to support well-managed companies, in the hope that we will see more of the same.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 04:53 PM   #73
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
Using a subscriber list is inherently biased.* The very poor don't have the money to subscribe to the magazine so they are effectively left out.* The.....uh......exceptionally frugal go to the library to read the magazine.* Many people only buy the magazine for a review of something they are currently looking at buying.* It is the same reason the large sampling companies don't rely on the phone book for the names of people to survey.
I would say it is biased when it comes to individual views.. *not if a car has problems or not...

if you bought a car and it broke.. you put it down.. *does not matter if you are poor or rich, liberal or conservative etc etc etc... *they also ask how much it costs to fix... and if they do not get enough responses on a model, they say the got insignificant data...


I guess you have never filled out one of their surveys...
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 05:02 PM   #74
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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So, you are careful to support American management, but not American workers? Somehow I don;t think that will save a lot of jobs in Michigan!

Personally, I like to support well-managed companies, in the hope that we will see more of the same.
I support a well run company that supplies good products.. that is what has made the 'domestic' cars a lot better than they were (or would be)... competition!! Look back at the '80s and '90s.. (even before if you wish).. the domestics were producing crap and wrapping themselves in the flag.. buy American... not for me... I buy on many things.. but being domestic brand is not one of them.. as of right now, I have one GM and one Acura..

And, having better products at a cheaper price makes the standard of living higher in the good ole USA... you have more money to do other things with...
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 05:17 PM   #75
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

Actually I DO get Consumer Reports as a gift subscription from a relative. I fill out the survey and send it in every year. Funny thing is they don't include the country of manufacture for any products they rate. They don't consider it a valid buying criteria. I do.

There are some good points at this allpar site. Any good statistician would have a cow if he saw their subscriber demographics and called it a useful sample of car owners.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

I forgot to mention I even go out of my way to fly on a Boeing jet over an Airbus.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 05:36 PM   #76
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

A guy I know is furious with Chrysler because the starter in his Chrysler minivan had to be replaced at 70,000 miles.* Same guy now has a Honda minivan that needed a new trans at about 30,000, which didn't bother him a bit.

I have an Accord an a Mercury Grand Marquis.* The Mercury has needed less attention than the Honda, and is a better car than the Honda in many ways (except for MPG).

Anecdotal, I know.* To each his own . . .
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 05:46 PM   #77
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

I might be shopping for a car in a year or two.

The Big Three don't make the kind of car I want to buy: a small two door hatchback.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 06:20 PM   #78
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
Hmmmm.* The very poor don't have the money to own a car.* The...uh...exceptionally frugal likely don't buy new cars, preferring to allow someone else to foot the bill for the first 2-3 years of deprecitation.
The poor, on welfare, in the town I used to patrol drove newer cars than I drive.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 06:27 PM   #79
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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Originally Posted by Khan
I might be shopping for a car in a year or two.

The Big Three don't make the kind of car I want to buy: a small two door hatchback.
Doesn't the Ford Focus come in a two-door hatchback version? (Though they call it a "three-door" -- when did the hatch become a door?)

That's actually one of the few American cars one sees with any regularity on the roads here, aside from novelty vehicles.
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............
Old 09-13-2006, 06:44 PM   #80
 
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Re: The new CEO of Ford drives a Lexus LS430.............

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
The poor, on welfare, in the town I used to patrol drove newer cars than I drive.

I know that this is the popular 'urban myth' - But how do you really know this? I know it's often repeated, but come on!

Did you ask their annual incomes?
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