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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-09-2006, 08:11 PM   #281
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Martha,

I think it is just a difference in priorities--letting people live as they choose vs. making people/encouraging people to live in a particular way. If we let people make choices that we disagree with, are we mean-spirited?

Kids are a special case. They aren't of age to make reasoned decisions, and society should be helping Mom and Dad to encourage them to eat right (among other behaviours we'd like to encourage).

"Political tags -- such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth -- are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort. "
Robert Heinlein, "Notebooks of Lazarus Long" Time Enough for Love
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-09-2006, 08:39 PM   #282
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-09-2006, 09:14 PM   #283
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Re: The obesity epidemic

I am not a Christian, but this is an inspiring declaration.

I am always amazed by the people that proclaim themselves Christians and also claim to follow the philosophies of Ayn Rand (at least when it comes to helping others).


Also agree with another poster that I won the 'birth lottery' (also went to public school, state college, state scholarship, federal loan); heck, my parents attained middle class status because of WW2 and the GI Bill.

But of course I should now claim that 'I did it all on my own'.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-09-2006, 09:31 PM   #284
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Re: The obesity epidemic

There are plenty of things people can do by themselves or with others if obesity is a cause they feel strongly about and if they want to be generous.
- Donate to Overeaters Anonymous
- Give free lectures at schools and public gatherings
- Picket a Krispy Kream
- "Witness" to obese people you see every day.

Get involved, do it, and make a difference. This will change lives for the better.

What I take issue with is the use of the coercive power of government or use of tax money for these projects.

Which earns more moral points: Doing something as an individual to solve a problem, or urging that the resources of other people be seized in order to solve it?
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-09-2006, 10:25 PM   #285
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem

What I take issue with is the use of the coercive power of government or use of tax money for these projects.

Which earns more moral points: Doing something as an individual to solve a problem, or urging that the resources of other people be seized in order to solve it?
I do see that some want to limit government's involvement, especially in matters that one would consider personal. I can see the slippery slope - how much does government interfere, just what can/should be mandated? But what bothers me with the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality is the disregard of how much business and advertising have effected society.

What has changed in the last 50-100 years? How much research and "focus group studies" have been done to find people's "buttons"? Look at all the investment tobacco companies have made in perfecting the "most addictive" ways to deliver nicotene. How much money do advertisers spend to tell you that some sugar filled crap is really good for you? Frosted Flakes is part of a "balanced diet".

I've had a serious issue with my weight for years and only recently have been able to get it under control. You think the "right" information is out there? Heck, look at the threads we have here - is being a vegetarian healthy? All of us can pull "sources" that tell us fat is bad - fat really isn't the problem, it's carbs - well, it's not carbs, it's the glycemic load - it really doesn't matter what you eat, only total calories in versus calories out - blah, blah,blah.

With respect to Rich in Tampa, how many of us are really qualified to sift thru all of this stuff and know what's "right" and what's not? I'm not sure how I feel about government programs to address the issue, but I do know how I feel about all the corporate marketing and the corporate influence in places like the FDA.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-09-2006, 11:12 PM   #286
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
What I take issue with is the use of the coercive power of government or use of tax money for these projects.
Which earns more moral points: Doing something as an individual to solve a problem, or urging that the resources of other people be seized in order to solve it?
I think we've already lost that battle.

I'd rather see my tax dollars spent up front on preventive care than afterward for Medicare and survivor's benefits...
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-09-2006, 11:18 PM   #287
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
"Witness" to obese people you see every day.
:P
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-09-2006, 11:28 PM   #288
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Say, how about when we tell other countries what to do about abstinence, theocracy, and capitalism, they tell us what to do about the Geneva Conventions, fossil fuels, and obesity? 8)

=astro, trying to kill this thread dead...
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 12:54 AM   #289
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Re: The obesity epidemic

20 pages on obesity -- this board posts like Americans eat.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 06:16 AM   #290
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
I do see that some want to limit government's involvement, especially in matters that one would consider personal. I can see the slippery slope - how much does government interfere, just what can/should be mandated? But what bothers me with the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality is the disregard of how much business and advertising have effected society.

What has changed in the last 50-100 years? How much research and "focus group studies" have been done to find people's "buttons"? Look at all the investment tobacco companies have made in perfecting the "most addictive" ways to deliver nicotene. How much money do advertisers spend to tell you that some sugar filled crap is really good for you? Frosted Flakes is part of a "balanced diet".

I've had a serious issue with my weight for years and only recently have been able to get it under control. You think the "right" information is out there? Heck, look at the threads we have here - is being a vegetarian healthy? All of us can pull "sources" that tell us fat is bad - fat really isn't the problem, it's carbs - well, it's not carbs, it's the glycemic load - it really doesn't matter what you eat, only total calories in versus calories out - blah, blah,blah.

With respect to Rich in Tampa, how many of us are really qualified to sift thru all of this stuff and know what's "right" and what's not? I'm not sure how I feel about government programs to address the issue, but I do know how I feel about all the corporate marketing and the corporate influence in places like the FDA.
To quote a nutritionist we had attend one of our city carnivals, "Look at the food pyramid and if your diet plan doesn't follow that, then it probably isn't giving you enough of the nutrients you need." This was a qualified statement. It did not include people with illnesses requiring a special diet. This advice was given to a group of people who had gathered. The two main people asking questions were an amateur bodybuilder, who seemed to jump on any fad diet there was, and a semi-pro football player, who took his nutrition advice from the bodybuilder. I worked with both people. The football player and I would get in heated debates about nutrition. After the woman explained the food pyramid theory to him he quit arguing. The government puts out the food pyramid. In fact you could probably do a quick search for it on the net and find all kinds of information.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 06:41 AM   #291
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
20 pages on obesity -- this board posts like Americans eat.
There must be a "chewing the fat" joke in here somewhere...

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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 07:18 AM   #292
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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I have to say that I am amazed. And I shouldn't be. Maybe it is the torturing of the "brother's keeper" statement. I know we have a blame culture. I know that personal responsibility is the theme of the United States. But why is self reliance so all consumingly important? What is wrong with community making things better for everyone? I honestly and truely do not understand
I am not sure where you got the idea that I propose "every man for himself" philosophy. However, there has to be a point at which we have to stop blaming McDonalds, our parents and society as a whole for our problems. No?

You are correct. We do have a blame culture, but it's "let's find out who else we can blame" culture.

I was raised in a very "community" oriented country. It didn't work as well as people hoped.

Lena
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 07:44 AM   #293
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lena

You are correct. We do have a blame culture, but it's "let's find out who else we can blame" culture.


Lena
Hi Lena! Don't mean to horn in but that's the way I see it.

JG
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 07:48 AM   #294
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Lena,

I'm not Ok with a lack of personal responsibility. I just feel that some people lack the motivation, drive, knowledge, etc. to personally master their obesity problem.
As a society we can choose to be pragmatic and offer help to these folks or sit back and blame them for their condition.

Why would society want to use public money. Two reasons, its cheaper in the long run to try to address the problem now and not to have to pay much larger associated costs down the road. Secondly on a moral basis it is the right thing to do.

2soon
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 07:51 AM   #295
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
The government puts out the food pyramid. In fact you could probably do a quick search for it on the net and find all kinds of information.
Everyone has seen the "food pyramid". I think the fat people are in a state of De Nile.

JG
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 08:17 AM   #296
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Re: The obesity epidemic

2soon,

how do you suggest we help? There are number of programs out there for people with all kinds of various problems. Obesity is no exception.

You can only do so much "to help", before crossing that famous "it's a free country" line.

I am OK with using public money, but the way it usually works, the one who pays the bill feels that he has the right to have his say. No? So, the way I see it, if you start actively "helping" people with their problems, sooner or later it will get to the point where you will want not just to "help" them, but to "guide" them to better choices, and then "strongly suggest" their choices. You get where I am going with this? And since I get reminded almost daily that "America is a free country", I am not sure how those two ideas can co-exist.

I volunteer for Abused women hotline. I have met some of those women face to face. I always want to ask - what made you stay so long, there are so many ways you could have gotten out. It took me a long time to understand that for them - there was no way out, until one day they saw that way.

I am all in favor of helping. But my opinion is that it has to start when the person sees that there is a way out. Not before. Helping before that makes it most of the time very useless.


Note: I use "you" as a general "you".

Lena

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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 08:37 AM   #297
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
I have to say that I am amazed. And I shouldn't be. Maybe it is the torturing of the "brother's keeper" statement. I know we have a blame culture. I know that personal responsibility is the theme of the United States. But why is self reliance so all consumingly important? What is wrong with community making things better for everyone? I honestly and truely do not understand.
I know you don't understand Martha, and you are obviously
intelligent. This is what makes these issues so difficult.
You have smart people who nonetheless are 180 degrees apart
on big important issues. And, in spite of all that brainpower
in the end.......................they have to just agree to disagree
(or go on debating/fighting I suppose). You know my politics
(quite radical). No one else in my family shares my views.
My dear mother is a left of center Dem. (I blush)
However, for all of my unappealing personality traits, I am a pretty
smart guy and my views were formed over 62 years of thinking
and living. Am I more extreme in my positions now?
You bet! Am I more convinced that "rugged self reliance" is the
best way? Absolutely! Am I starting to sound like Donald
Rumsfeld? Yep.

I'm outa here for now. I may PM you on this issue later as I have a lot of respect
for you which puts you in a very small and select group.

JG


[Moderator edit: quote fix.]
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 09:14 AM   #298
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2soon2tell
I just feel that some people lack the motivation, drive, knowledge, etc. to personally master their obesity problem.
If the person lacks many of these abilities then the only way for society to help is to assign someone to monitor them 24/7 and if they step out of line, then take corrective action. If that person is assigned by the government they will have to receive a paycheck and governement benefits, further increasing the overspending problem in this country.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 09:26 AM   #299
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Wow, we've said a lot in here! What Cal said struck a note with me about being able to discern all this nutrition information. I went to see my GP yesterday, to talk nutrition and diet. When I got there, the 100 lbs overweight nurse did my weight, blood pressure, temp and asked me what I was there for. Somewhat embarrassed, I replied for weight loss advice. Then the doctor came in (okay came in 45 minutes later), who is about 40 lbs overweight. Now I realize that her knowledge of nutrition is not affected by her weight, but it is strange to be talking about losing weight with a doctor who is overweight (recalling the docs I've known who smoked).

It just makes you realize what a big (pun intended) problem this is for so many folks. And as she said, "Sarah, you are as knowledgeable on this subject as most nutritionists, and I can refer you to one, but realize that they don't have any information you don't already know."

Prescription: complete metabolic panel, insulin, etc just to be sure, and more exercise, less calories. No magic bullet diet. Sigh.
Sarah

PS: Gee I'm glad I'm not married to some of you guys...so nice and supportive
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 10-10-2006, 09:52 AM   #300
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lena
I am not sure where you got the idea that I propose "every man for himself" philosophy. However, there has to be a point at which we have to stop blaming McDonalds, our parents and society as a whole for our problems. No?

You are correct. We do have a blame culture, but it's "let's find out who else we can blame" culture.

I was raised in a very "community" oriented country. It didn't work as well as people hoped.

Lena
I rarely see people who have addiction problems (food, alcohol, cigarettes, etc) blame anyone but themselves. They live with so much shame that the shame makes it difficult for them to find motivation to change.

I believe I have suggested several positive ways to promote weight loss in this country.



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