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Re: Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:33 PM   #41
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Re: Re: The obesity epidemic

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
Rich I'm not saying they want to be obese or a smoker, only that they don't want to do what is necessary to lose weight or stop smoking. I've been there and done that. Eventually, to paraphrase the 12-step programs, they (me) hit bottom and decide to change our behaviors. Bottom is different for each person.
Gotcha.

But I would think that having been there and succeeded, you might be in a good position to help others do the same, no? Why were you able to do it, and someone else couldn't?

Almost like pneumonia - you can get a mild case and do fine with little or no treatment, and the person next to you might die or need a ventilator.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:35 PM   #42
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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Originally Posted by Nords
"We'd love to promote you because you're qualified and we really really need you... but you just happen to be over the official weight standards. *Luckily we've signed you up for mandatory counseling, nutritional training, 3x/week supervised workouts, and monthly weigh-ins.* Please don't miss any of these obligations under penalty of UCMJ, and get back to us about that promotion & pay raise when you're within standards. *Have a nice day, and don't forget to re-enlist!"
That actually sounds fantastic, and it's similar to proven intervention programs in non-military settings. * Education, motivation, external accountability, regular follow-up. * What more could we do for these folks?
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:36 PM   #43
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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Originally Posted by wab
That actually sounds fantastic, and it's similar to proven intervention programs in non-military settings. * Education, motivation, external accountability, regular follow-up. * What more could we do for these folks?
We could mind our own business (how quaint!).
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:38 PM   #44
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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We could mind our own business (how quaint!).
Gotcha. So the answer to the obesity epidemic is: do nothing and let the healthy share the burden.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:40 PM   #45
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Re: The obesity epidemic

No, smart guy. Overweight people very often pay higher rates for medical insurance. Got me now?
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:40 PM   #46
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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No, smart guy. Overweight people very often pay higher rates for medical insurance.* Got me now?
A fat tax! I like it....
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Re: Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:41 PM   #47
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Re: Re: The obesity epidemic

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Originally Posted by lets-retire

I have arrested numerous people for drug related charges. These people were sentenced to drug treatments. Because they were not self motivated to stay clean, they don't. The people who view their arrest as the bottom amazingly stayed clean longer. I watched several of these people go on to make a good life for themselves.

I'd say that makes me as knowledgable as any to speak on the topic.
I agree. You have seen alot and do have some basis for forming your opinions on this matter.

You have seen the darkest of the dark side, unfortunately, and that may not leave you with a completely valid view of these types of illnesses and compulsions. But at least you have some exposure to what they can do.

Probably would be interesting for you to see the non-crimininal and non-family victims so you could form a more objective view point. My experience is that these folks are suffering and would give alot to lose their sel-destructive ways. They just don't know what to do, and our treatments are not perfect. It's pretty sad, but in my view doesn't deserve disdain (not calling you out, Lets; just a general thought).
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:41 PM   #48
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Re: The obesity epidemic

We already have one. *Who cares whether you like it or not?
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:44 PM   #49
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
That actually sounds fantastic, and it's similar to proven intervention programs in non-military settings. * Education, motivation, external accountability, regular follow-up. * What more could we do for these folks?
After a couple decades of all sides of these programs, here's the answer: *let them resign from the service until they're ready to come back in.

What you've chosen to see as beneficient & avuncular support, others see as legislated intrusion with mandated (yet unfunded) requirements. *But if we subjected ourselves to the same program for a few months then no doubt we'd have abdominal muscles like Brad Pitt, cholestorol below 100, you'd have fixed all of WinXP's flaws, and I'd have my martial arts black belt. *Then we could both get ourselves drafted by the NBA.

The symptoms of the obesity (or the alcoholism, or the drug addiction) are addressed without bothering to try to correct the root cause. *(I'm sorry, Tricare won't cover psychological counseling for your family too. *Did you want to keep your security clearance with that?) *I'm not trying to claim that it's the military's job to cure the social problems of its recruits, but we take an unholy glee at pounding some people even harder than the rest because they have poor stress-coping mechanisms. *We feel entitled to do so because we're paying their salary, so I think that the best way to break the cycle is to stop paying them.

I bet we'd see a big drop in veterans' heart attacks, strokes, accidents, incidents, and even suicides.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:45 PM   #50
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Re: The obesity epidemic

eridanus--I understand that. *My point was that we are already paying for much of the information to be presented. *If the person sees itor looks in the mirror and decides they need to change then they can seek out the information/support needed. *Once people start to be hounded, the message loses it's effectivness.

Rich--In all of my research nowhere has anybody figured out that last question. *I think it comes down to personal desire. *I know everytime I tried and failed to quit it was because deep down I really didn't want to. *However, once I decided coughing up a lung every morning, panting after going up a flight of stairs, and having everything taste like cigarettes wasn't for me, quiting was much easier than ever before. *Some people do need the assistance of a support group and they are out there all that is needed is to look for it. *When someone says they are quiting I do everything I can, without intentionally being annoying to help that person succeed.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:48 PM   #51
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
What you've chosen to see as beneficient & avuncular support, others see as legislated intrusion with mandated (yet unfunded) requirements.
Well, the civilian version of the program is completely voluntary, of course.* * Two problems though: it costs a fortune, and it's not covered by insurance.* *I think we could go a long way by simply subsidizing such a program, and some companies do (here in WA, Starbucks and Microsoft will subsidize obesity intervention for example).* * Seems to be very effective for those motivated to sign up.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:49 PM   #52
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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Rich I'm not saying they want to be obese or a smoker, only that they don't want to do what is necessary to lose weight or stop smoking.*

YET. *

The word left off the end of this sentence, IMHO, is "yet."

Folks spend years trying to quit things that are bad for them. *Some of them never make it. *But many do. *Maybe not on the first try, or the second, or the twentieth. *Some of them are truly outstanding, compassionate, joyful people.

In the past, when I was young and inexperienced and saw a smoker or a drinker or an overeater or a chronic spender, my knee-jerk reaction was to say to myself "there goes an addict."

These days, having known people who found the strength they needed to change their lives, I say "there goes a future former addict."

It's a happier view of the world, for me.



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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:51 PM   #53
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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Originally Posted by Caroline

YET. *

The word left off the end of this sentence, IMHO, is "yet."

Folks spend years trying to quit things that are bad for them. *Some of them never make it. *But many do. *Maybe not on the first try, or the second, or the twentieth. *Some of them are truly outstanding, compassionate, joyful people.

In the past, when I was young and inexperienced and saw a smoker or a drinker or an overeater or a chronic spender, my knee-jerk reaction was to say to myself "there goes an addict."

These days, having known people who found the strength they needed to change their lives, I say "there goes a future former addict."

It's a happier view of the world, for me.
Darn it caught by the editor. You are correct. Many time people try and do change their behavior before the long road, but unfortunately some don't and never saw a reason to try.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:56 PM   #54
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Stop me if you've heard this one already.

Anti-obesity nose spray:

press release
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:57 PM   #55
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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Originally Posted by wab
Stop me if you've heard this one already.

Anti-obesity nose spray:

press release
Try squirting some up your rectum.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 04:58 PM   #56
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Re: The obesity epidemic

Nords,
I think most professionals in a risky business (cop, sub driver, aviator, etc), believe there are no accidents, that every bad thing that occurs is the result of somebody screwing up. It's the best way to stay sane. "Too bad about Joe, but he knew better than to (take off his body armor, descend below minimums on the instrument approach, run the scram test with the sphincterabob valve open, etc.) Too bad, but he screwed up. I would never let that happen".

Of course, in truth sometimes DO go catastrophically wrong and no amount of skill could prevent disaster. (USS Thresher?)

The rats in the Skinner box who must press the bar incredibly fast to avoid an electric shock aren't the ones that went crazy, it was the rats that got zapped at a random interval no matter what they did.

WW-II fighter pilots didn't have nearly the same combat fatigue/stress issues as 8th AF bomber pilots.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 05:00 PM   #57
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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Originally Posted by jeff2006
Try squirting some up your rectum.
I enjoy your insightful additions to this discussion. I'll let you know when I get a squirt bottle, OK?
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 05:10 PM   #58
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Re: The obesity epidemic

I might add that it's relatively easy to live in a smoke-, drug-, and alcohol-free environment, especially in your own home. A little harder to live in a food-free environment, so "food addicts" are faced with their demon 3 times a day--not to mention a refrigerator and pantry full of their fix all day long, as well as eating out opportunities and tons of food-related advertising. My father quit smoking (3 packs/day at his peak) and drinking (daily), but was never able to quit overeating.
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 05:15 PM   #59
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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The rats in the Skinner box who must press the bar incredibly fast to avoid an electric shock aren't the ones that went crazy, it was the rats that got zapped at a random interval no matter what they did. *

WW-II fighter pilots didn't have nearly the same combat fatigue/stress issues as 8th AF bomber pilots.
Not to be one of those PITA folks who have to correct others, but this one is kinda up my alley and there seem to be conflicting views...


"Brady's (1958) aim was to investigate whether the stress of receiving electric shocks would lead to stress-related illness in monkeys, and whether this would interact with the degree of control over the shocks.

Monkeys received electric foot shocks that were signaled by a preceding tone. *Monkeys were run in pairs, with one in each pair – the so called “executive monkey” – able to press a lever to avoid shocks. * The other monkey in the pair could not press the lever, but received all the foot shocks that were delivered (this second monkey in the pair was the ‘yoked’ animal).

After 23 days the ‘executive’ monkeys began to die of gastric ulceration. *The yoked control monkeys, who received shocks but could not try to avoid them, remained healthy.

Brady concluded that the shocks themselves were not severely stressful as the yoked monkeys showed little gastric ulceration; the critical factor was the stress associated with trying to avoid the shocks. *Having control was the stressful element in this study, causing gastric ulceration in the ‘executive’ monkeys.

While this is a very famous study, subsequent investigators have questioned Brady's findings and have often reported conflicting results. *Stressing monkeys (or any animals) until they die or become severely ill is highly unethical and would not be permitted in the field today."


As to the WWII pilots -- I wonder if any of them lived long enough to get combat fatigue...
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Re: The obesity epidemic
Old 09-28-2006, 05:16 PM   #60
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Re: The obesity epidemic

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Originally Posted by wab
Well, the civilian version of the program is completely voluntary, of course.* * Two problems though: it costs a fortune, and it's not covered by insurance.* *I think we could go a long way by simply subsidizing such a program, and some companies do (here in WA, Starbucks and Microsoft will subsidize obesity intervention for example).* * Seems to be very effective for those motivated to sign up.
One of my sons is capable of working 3000 hour s a year, yet he couldn't lose the weight he put on soon after he got away from my cooking and my forced exercise.

He went on one of these programs, lost 40 pounds, and truly has a new lease on life. It wasn't that he didn't want to lose it before, it was just that with everything in his life screaming "Take Care of Me First", he needed expert and caring guidance and support.

Ha
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