Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 12:59 PM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by frayne
I spent a year in Nam as a grunt with the 1st Cav. If told or knew that I would have had to do two or three more tours this boy would have seriously thought about Canada as a vialbe option.
I have to wonder if some of today's troops are considering their options, given the surprise open-ended deployment the Pentagon has sprung on them.
__________________

__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 01:29 PM   #22
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

It is so easy to get angry about what happened and why, but the anger is distracting. Most assume that the surge is a long shot or simply will not work. As Janeeyre stated this thread: Then what? Is there anything we can do (or should not do) to help quiet the chaos or help stop it from spreading?
__________________

__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 01:34 PM   #23
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
It is so easy to get angry about what happened and why, but the anger is distracting. Most assume that the surge is a long shot or simply will not work. As Janeeyre stated this thread: Then what? Is there anything we can do (or should not do) to help quiet the chaos or help stop it from spreading?
Sure: Start taliking to Iran & Syria & North Korea. Stop waving sabres every time we feel like we aren't getting our way. Start pulling troops out of Iraq to underscore that the Iraqis need to sort things out themselves. Stop kidding ourselves that we can keep soldiers in the field indefinately without problems in the Armed Forces. Ask China and Russia for help.

Ain't holding my breath on any of this.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 01:52 PM   #24
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 105
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

I know this is getting real old by now, but I'd like the Bush enablers to think about and respond to these points:
1. Iraq had nothing to do with the events of 9-11-01.

2. Bush and Rumsfeld lied repeatedly to get the invasion going.

3. Once started, they had NO plan for the ensuing occupation.

4. Our troops were sent there inadequately protected and in inadequate strength.

5. The extremist groups you neocons are so fixated on were not a factor in Iraq before the invasion. They are now.

6. The politicians, from Johnson to Junior Bush, have continually lied to get our troops sent into harm's way. And then abandoned them as useless cannon fodder when they get home.

7. And you righties fall for it every time.
__________________
alphabet soup is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 03:45 PM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
frayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 19th Hole
Posts: 2,531
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
It is so easy to get angry about what happened and why, but the anger is distracting. Most assume that the surge is a long shot or simply will not work. As Janeeyre stated this thread: Then what? Is there anything we can do (or should not do) to help quiet the chaos or help stop it from spreading?
Not angry here but just trying to be objective. If we keep doing the same thing and expect different results we are only fooling ourselves. The time is ripe to cut our losses and leave. IMHO 20K more troops means 20K more targets for the bad guys.
__________________
A totally unblemished life is only for saints.
frayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 05:13 PM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Then they will have death, destruction and chaos. . . Oh . . . wait a minute. That's what they have now. The difference is that now the death, destruction and chaos involves US troops. If we were not there, it would not.
Except for the long term view. What happens if the likely joint iraqi/iranian muslim extremist "axis" ends up leaning on saudi arabia a little bit to "unwesternize" their position and decides to start pushing israel into the ocean. Between the oil squeeze and our affiliations with the israeli's, we'll have a bit of a dilemma.

Think we wont be going back there to fight a larger mess?

Please note that I posted years ago that this was a mess we didn't want to be in the middle of, but we broke it and washing our hands of it wont end our long term participation. What I said would happen is exactly whats happened.

I *am* quite amused by the recent media play of "Hey, we gave these people democracy and look how they're repaying us!".
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 05:22 PM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Shoot...the perfect solution just occurred to me.

We need to install a local "strongman" who opposes the extremists, keeps the fringe nutjobs in line, and absolutely kicks the ass of anyone who tries to overthrow him or start any disruptive internal military action. Someone who the iranians and turks would be leery of attacking. That'd solve the problem.

Anyone come to mind?
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 05:24 PM   #28
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,107
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Guapo
Shoot...the perfect solution just occurred to me.

We need to install a local "strongman" who opposes the extremists, keeps the fringe nutjobs in line, and absolutely kicks the ass of anyone who tries to overthrow him or start any disruptive internal military action. Someone who the iranians and turks would be leery of attacking. That'd solve the problem.

Anyone come to mind?
Don't get hung up on another wild scheme...

__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 05:41 PM   #29
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mesa
Posts: 3,588
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Guapo
Except for the long term view. What happens if the likely joint iraqi/iranian muslim extremist "axis" ends up leaning on saudi arabia a little bit to "unwesternize" their position and decides to start pushing israel into the ocean.. .
Don't confuse this question with either an alternative answer or with an argument against the original statement.

I notice that you don't ask the question, "What happens if we continue our losing battle?" The answer to that question may be the very scenario you just spelled out.

Another important question might be, "What is the best course of action to avoid losing all influence in the politics of the middle east?" Anyone who thinks the answer is that we should keep fighting a war over there needs to study the mid-east a little more thoroughly.

It is going to take a long time to overcome the negative reputation we've gotten for ourselves over this fiasco, but we can't start to overcome it as long as we are fighting a war we started with an unjustified invasion and in a region where we are not wanted. When you find yourself in a hole, the first action you take should be to stop digging.
__________________
sgeeeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 06:14 PM   #30
Full time employment: Posting here.
Patrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern, Florida
Posts: 925
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Guapo
Shoot...the perfect solution just occurred to me.

We need to install a local "strongman" who opposes the extremists, keeps the fringe nutjobs in line, and absolutely kicks the ass of anyone who tries to overthrow him or start any disruptive internal military action. Someone who the iranians and turks would be leery of attacking. That'd solve the problem.

Anyone come to mind?
Manuel Noriega, Idi Amin Dada (if he's still alive), Mohamar (sp?) Khadaffi.
__________________
Retired in 2006 at age 49.

"Who among us is smart enough to learn from the mistakes of others?" - Voltaire
Patrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 06:33 PM   #31
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I notice that you don't ask the question, "What happens if we continue our losing battle?" The answer to that question may be the very scenario you just spelled out.
Agreed. But I think we should have what we didnt have going in: a reasoned plan, options, a backup plan, and assets in place that will assure we arent setting the stage for unavoidable re-entry. It doesnt have to be an open ended thing, but bailing out seems to leave a lot of open holes for something bad to happen.

I think the chief problem is that we sit here as reasonable men and women with a lot to lose, considering the actions of unreasonable men with a lot to gain and little to lose.

It sure would be nice to get our kids home, have all the nutjobs we've drawn into iraq go back to wherever they came from, have a nice chat with the turks and iranians about making nice about the whole thing, and going back to worrying about something else.

Is that a reasonable outcome?

And yeah, we have a lot of healing to do...not just at home but around the world. How we managed to go from worldwide sympathy to worldwide despise was a neat trick. We've absolutely become what we hated most about the soviets 30 years ago.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 09:23 PM   #32
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Guapo
Shoot...the perfect solution just occurred to me.
We need to install a local "strongman" who opposes the extremists, keeps the fringe nutjobs in line, and absolutely kicks the ass of anyone who tries to overthrow him or start any disruptive internal military action. Someone who the iranians and turks would be leery of attacking. That'd solve the problem.
Anyone come to mind?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Manuel Noriega, Idi Amin Dada (if he's still alive), Mohamar (sp?) Khadaffi.
Hey, TH, I hear that at least two of the Bush brothers will be available in the next few years...

BTW, who's that in your avatar and what's he putting his foot into? Is this another Bush metaphor?
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-12-2007, 09:35 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Thats gabe and his new potty chair. Which apparently he believes to be a shoe of some type.

No metaphor implied, but if the shoe fits...
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 06:33 AM   #34
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 714
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
It sure would be nice to get our kids home, have all the nutjobs we've drawn into iraq go back to wherever they came from, have a nice chat with the turks and iranians about making nice about the whole thing, and going back to worrying about something else.
I really wish you were right about that, but it won't work out that way. A lot of people want to believe this, and I don't blame them.

A large gulf between some of us is whether we believe radical Islamists will pursue and accept peace with the U.S. and the rest of the world. I don't believe they will. And, the result of backing off from these nutjobs will give them time to regroup and come into the U.S. (for example), and we will see suicide bombings here, and worse. I believe this would have happened regardless of our policy in Iraq, because these people hate our culture and our economy. [Spend a little time reading about the reality of radical Islam ... they are effectively murderous fascists (is there any other kind) ... with a perspective akin to the middle ages. And some of my opinion is influenced by Islamic professional friends who see the radicals in this way. This is some enemy we're dealing with here.]

I suppose we'll see exactly what happens along the lines of just withdrawing, because the lefties are as foolish as the righties ... the lefties are gaining power, and the lefties always like to believe you need to make nice, small is beautiful, and we can all live in peace. Great thoughts ... but when dealing with murderous thugs it always means deferring and then worsening the eventual, big war.

[edited ... I see now where brewer did offer some construction thoughts for solutions.]
__________________
Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 08:23 AM   #35
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,375
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

[quote=lets-retire ]

No doubt young Mr. Brewers finest hour doesn't come when he gets
involved in military discussions.

But on balance he is very knowledgable in the financial area, and freely
spends a lot of time giving pretty darn good advice in that area.

Anyway, for me personally, I prefer to stay away from "Arm-Chair Quarterbacking" discussions.

If I decide that I need that for some kind of therapy, there's always
the VFW, where you can do that up close and personal to your hearts content. 8)
__________________
Jarhead* is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 09:31 AM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,471
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabet soup
I know this is getting real old by now, but I'd like the Bush enablers to think about and respond to these points:
1. Iraq had nothing to do with the events of 9-11-01.

2. Bush and Rumsfeld lied repeatedly to get the invasion going.

3. Once started, they had NO plan for the ensuing occupation.

4. Our troops were sent there inadequately protected and in inadequate strength.

5. The extremist groups you neocons are so fixated on were not a factor in Iraq before the invasion. They are now.

6. The politicians, from Johnson to Junior Bush, have continually lied to get our troops sent into harm's way. And then abandoned them as useless cannon fodder when they get home.

7. And you righties fall for it every time.
Great post Alphabet Soup!

Audrey
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 11:50 AM   #37
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 714
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Will be helpful if alphabet soup can also suggest some solutions.
__________________
Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 12:57 PM   #38
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mesa
Posts: 3,588
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Many Americans now believe that 1) we never should have gone into Iraq and 2) that we should get out as soon as possible. Based on what's happened over there and in terms of the US reputation around the world, there seems to be significant reasons to favor the two beliefs listed above.

Another group of people refuse to believe the points listed above and warn that things may get worse if we abandon Iraq now. Apparently, they find the current level of death, injury and destruction of US forces acceptable as long as . . . well . . . that's what's not clear to me. What long term strategic advantages do those people think we are accomplishing under the current plan? How is getting American soldiers killed and injured in an Iraqi civil war helping us? How is providing a lightning rod for Islamic extremests helping us? What do these people see as an end game? Do they really believe that if we fight long enough and lose enough troops that the Islamic fundamentalists will embrace US ideas and live in peace with us? Or do they believe that we will somehow be able to kill so many Islamic fundamentalists that they will become insignificant threats?
__________________
sgeeeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 01:50 PM   #39
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
tryan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,449
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
I know this is getting real old by now, but I'd like the Bush enablers to think about and respond to these points:
1. Iraq had nothing to do with the events of 9-11-01.

2. Bush and Rumsfeld lied repeatedly to get the invasion going.

3. Once started, they had NO plan for the ensuing occupation.

4. Our troops were sent there inadequately protected and in inadequate strength.

5. The extremist groups you neocons are so fixated on were not a factor in Iraq before the invasion. They are now.

6. The politicians, from Johnson to Junior Bush, have continually lied to get our troops sent into harm's way. And then abandoned them as useless cannon fodder when they get home.

7. And you righties fall for it every time.
I believe the "party line" would be as follows:

1. We're heading off the NEXT 9-11.
2. Bush and Rumsfeld saw the same data congress saw when they authorized the war.
3. Any "plan" was deemed obsolete when the world's islamic extremist flooded the Iraq borders. Nice having them in one place .... 5+ years without an attack in this country proves the "plan" is working.
4. Yup ... 8 years of Clinton's defense cuts took a toll. And if Kerry were elected they'd be even less supported ... look at his senate voting history.
5. They were always out there ... lurking. As stated in #3: Nice having them all in one place!
6. See #2. Any "abandonment" in this conflict as come from the relentless message from the "Cut n'Run" media and Dems.
7. Yes, we support any president and the troops in war time. Because war is a time to unify. Nothing lifts an enemy like unrest in the US.
__________________
FIRE'd since 2005
tryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 03:08 PM   #40
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mesa
Posts: 3,588
Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by tryan
I believe the "party line" would be as follows:

1. We're heading off the NEXT 9-11.
And no matter what happens here, they can claim success. If it doesn't happen, their actions clearly helped. If it does happen, then their actions helped to minimize the damage. No one can provide data to the contrary. On the other hand, the same argument can clearly be made with just as much justification by the other side. If we get out now and no more attacks occur, it was clearly the right thing to do. If we get out now and an attack does occur, then it is proof that we should have gotten out earlier. The attack is the result of the hatred we built up during our unjustified invasion.

If you want to believe, this argument allows you to believe whatever you want.

Quote:
2. Bush and Rumsfeld saw the same data congress saw when they authorized the war.
Well . . . they saw it because they put it together. If you lie and fool someone, you really don't have a right to blame them for following where your lie led them.

Quote:
3. Any "plan" was deemed obsolete when the world's islamic extremist flooded the Iraq borders. Nice having them in one place .... 5+ years without an attack in this country proves the "plan" is working.
This is another one that either side can claim whatever they want. The invasion of Iraq may result in more lives lost and bodies injured than any attack we might have experienced over the past 5+ years. Or maybe the invasion has kept our enemies busy elsewhere and saved us from unbelievable terror.

This is another argument that allows you to rationalize any belief you want.

Quote:
4. Yup ... 8 years of Clinton's defense cuts took a toll. And if Kerry were elected they'd be even less supported ... look at his senate voting history.
5. They were always out there ... lurking. As stated in #3: Nice having them all in one place!
This is an interesting point. Of course we all know that everything is Clinton's fault. But if we carry this reasoning back a little in time, we have to conclude that Clinton's policies kept us from being attacked and we were only attacked after the Bush administration took over. So the whole thing must be Bush's fault.

Quote:
6. See #2. Any "abandonment" in this conflict as come from the relentless message from the "Cut n'Run" media and Dems.
The reactionary right seems to love stubborness. They often mistakenly refer to it as "leadership". When Bush or Reagan say "stay the course" they seem comforted by that even if the course seems to be head-on to an iceberg. They seem to say, "I don't care how many people die or how far from my intended outcome this war seems to take us. I refuse to admit something might be wrong with my original plan by changing courses even a little bit." I've never understood how that is interpreted as leadership. It just seems bullheaded and stupid to me. If "Cut n'Run" is the wrong approach to this slow motion train wreck, can any of these people explain how more death and fighting is going to bring us out the other side? I'm hearing the complaints that they don't want to abandon their strategy, but I'm not hearing how doing the same thing is going to get a different result.

Quote:
7. Yes, we support any president and the troops in war time. Because war is a time to unify. Nothing lifts an enemy like unrest in the US.
In a democracy, support of a president does not mean blind obediance. Support of the troops is not equivalent to sending them on a fool's mission then putting a yellow ribbon magnet on your car. Some of us love the American presidency and American youth in the military enough to want to protect both from folly.
__________________

__________________
sgeeeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MOVED: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush Cut-Throat Life after FIRE 0 01-14-2007 07:31 AM
Bush essentially Calls U.S. Treas Bonds 'Worthless Cut-Throat Other topics 46 04-08-2005 08:28 AM
President Bush or Senator Kerry GTM Other topics 4 10-09-2004 06:26 AM
Bush floats a national sales tax dex FIRE and Money 22 08-17-2004 08:15 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.