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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 03:23 PM   #41
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

I can support "the surge" if the two Bush daughters are part of the additional 20,000 deployed. It's time for him to get a little skin in the game.
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 03:51 PM   #42
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

I'll offer the thought that there is a fundamental philosophical difference in the debate -- those that think attitude matters more than capability and those that think capability matters more than attitude.

It is far easier, and quicker, to change an attitude than it is to build a weapons program. Throughout all modern conflict -- since the beginning of the Atomic Age -- it has always been wiser to assess threat level as a function of capability, when one is doing so for a populace that does not have a history of decades of proven support.

The existence of hatred of the US by a population that has been stripped, and kept stripped, of a program / ability to manufacture weaponry that can kill millions of Americans -- well, it means nothing, doesn't it? Their hatred is unimportant. Why would you care if millions of people hate you if they are powerless to do anything about it?

If they are not powerless, or are striving to be powerful, why would you trust any claims about some recent attitude change that they might make? Isn't that needlessly dangerous? Clearly it is wiser to take steps to keep them powerless.

Is this not easier, and safer, than allowing them to build such a capability and trust to your impression of whatever love they profess that they will not use it?

Debate on this stuff always turns into question and counter question, so I'll suspend all questions above and simply assert that it is safer to destroy an enemy than it is to persuade him to love you, and trust that he isn't lying about that love.
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 04:17 PM   #43
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Interesting thread....although folks are using the same talking points you will hear on national TV or talk show radio (listen to both). I am more disheartened by our leadership pointing fingers and playing the blame, all the while trying to position themselves for political power rather than trying to work together for a solution.

As far as second guessing the war effort, I doubt we have the same intelligence and facts that those in top military positions rely on when making decisions (otherwise I doubt we could sleep at night). Yet, we want to second guess and assume that we know better. Of course we get our facts from what the media tells us - interesting what the media will pick up and run with and what THEY decide is not worth reporting - so, we analyze, digest and argue points based on half truths.

Americans by nature are impatient and don't like to hear bad news. We want immediate solutions today....we will worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. So, history will be the judge of the right or wrong of the IRAQ war.

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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 04:22 PM   #44
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Will be helpful if alphabet soup can also suggest some solutions.
The only viable solution I can see is to return Iraq to its pre-1918 partitions; i.e. where the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds each had their own territory.

You can criticize my opinion, but I didn't break it, your guy did.

And he can't fix it!
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 04:38 PM   #45
 
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Yup! - Bush Jr. owns this one!

He should have left the mess to Saddam!

Spent $300 Billion Plus - you right wingers bitch about social programs. - Now this is a waste!

Time to turn the country over to the Democrats and clean up the mess you've made!
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 04:52 PM   #46
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

sg ... I am dizzy from reading your post .... you're running in circles. We can agree to disagree. Democrats will continue to push Iraq as a quagmire ... Republicains will push Iraq as an incubator for terrorism.

A friend and I had this very discussion and he said something interesting .... he said: Because of 9-11, America has finally been forced to face the same problems the rest of the world has been dealing with for decades: the islamic extremist.

I for one am proud to have a president who is willing to take the fight to the enemy. And not sit home, wringing thier hands (or running in circles ) ala Jimmy Carter.

Quote:

it is safer to destroy an enemy than it is to persuade him to love you,
rodmail ... we agree.
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 07:14 PM   #47
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by tryan
sg ... I am dizzy from reading your post .... you're running in circles. We can agree to disagree. Democrats will continue to push Iraq as a quagmire ... Republicains will push Iraq as an incubator for terrorism.

A friend and I had this very discussion and he said something interesting .... he said: Because of 9-11, America has finally been forced to face the same problems the rest of the world has been dealing with for decades: the islamic extremist.

I for one am proud to have a president who is willing to take the fight to the enemy. And not sit home, wringing thier hands (or running in circles ) ala Jimmy Carter.

rodmail ... we agree.
I can understand why you are dizzy. My previous post pointed out the circles the current administration is running in and illustrated how many of their arguments could be used by either side since they depended entirely on perception rather than fact. Iraq is both a quagmire and an incubator for terrorism. Of course it wasn't an incubator for terrorism until Bush and company decided to invade it based on lies. And it probably will cease to be an incubator for terrorism as soon as the US leaves and is no longer an easy target for terrorists. I'm afraid the quagmire portion will take longer to go away, but I don't see how losing more American lives is fixing that.

By the way, I've posed a question to the supporters of more troops on two different occasions in this thread and no one has chosen to answer it. I'll ask again: For those of you who feel we should just keep sending more Americans over there, what do you see as the end game? How do you think doing more of the same is going to lead to an acceptable end? I guess a hint to the answer to that question may be in the statement rodmail makes that you agree with: "it is safer to destroy an enemy than it is to persuade him to love you." Do you really believe that the US will be able to destroy this enemy by increasing the number of troops in Iraq? Have you thought through that scenario and considered the fact that there are other Islamic states in the region? Or is it your plan for the US to bomb the entire mid-east back to the stone age?
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 08:15 PM   #48
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

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Do you really believe that the US will be able to destroy this enemy by increasing the number of troops in Iraq? Have you thought through that scenario and considered the fact that there are other Islamic states in the region? Or is it your plan for the US to bomb the entire mid-east back to the stone age?

Have you considered the consequencies of doing "nothing" ... imagine daily suicide bombings in the streets of US cities. Not pretty ... think Israel.

It's like an ant/bee infestation. We've been hunting individuals for decades (WTC first bombing, Cole bombing, countless embassy bombings). But the swarm will continue to grow until the nest is sprayed. You might fool yourself into thinking you've sovled it (Clinton) by catching a couple; but the problem festers. Deal with it now or it's a bigger problem later. We have not had a "problem" here in the US for 5+ years because the infestation is finally being dealt with.

A democratic Iraq is exactly the answer to NOT bombing the entire mid-east to the stone age. Hopefully democracy will tumble the islamic extremism the same way capitolism tumbled socialism. I believe that's the bet GWB has made. Right or wrong? We won't know for years.

Admitedly the one thing missing from Bush's speech was "we will exit Iraq in the year XXXX". No matter how far out, an exit date would have helped. American's can't stomach opened ended conflicts.
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 08:17 PM   #49
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Best not to participate in questions exchanged and replied to with questions and then we all celebrate that no one answered a question.

The optimal end game scenario for Iraq is permanent US troop presence on what is the 2nd or 3rd largest oil reserves in the world -- in a century where continued US dominance of the planet depends on either physically or economically denying oil to competitors as the inevitable shortages arrive.

It does not matter what stated goals might be to create a more palatable perspective from the public. As long as what is achieved is control of that oil and denial of that territory to weapons development programs then that is victory. So far, victory has been achieved. The price in blood and dollars is quite small, too. It would be nice if it were smaller, but as a price to purchase planetary dominance for perhaps an entire century, it seems inexpensive.
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 08:23 PM   #50
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

... yeah, one thing we can ALL agree on: As long as we're in Iraq, let's have 10 cent/gallon gas!
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 08:29 PM   #51
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodmail
The price in blood and dollars is quite small, too.
OK, when do you and/or you kids plan on volunteering for a tour? The price is always small when it is paid with someone else's resources.
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 09:09 PM   #52
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Good question, Brewer.

I'm not sure if all wars have provided this opportunity but it appears the Iraq war will take anyone who wants to go. There seems to be plenty of opportunities for any civilian who wants to participate and you'll even be well-compensated. There doesn't appear to be any excuse not to serve if you are in favor of what is going on over there.
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 09:33 PM   #53
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

You know I keep hearing this fight them there instead of here argument and have to wonder. How much security could we have bought with the dollars we are throwing down that pit called Iraq.

How much border security, how much training and upgrading of our first responders? How much more and better equipment and intelligence, surveillance to prevent the bad guys from striking here in the first place?

You can't suicide bomb if your a** is not in this country. You can't kill if your plan is discovered.

We have learned nothing from 9/11.

Bush has squandered the opportunity to unite and make us secure and we have rewarded him by electing him to a second term. We were too cowed to speak up when we were sold this bowl of cr*p. Our leaders have been caught in a lie and some want us to continue to believe. We have given away our freedoms and constitutional rights because we were told it was needed to gain what we think is security. We have been played for fools, our fear used against us and we are still not secure.

The American citizenry is not blameless. We have gone along with this madness and have let down over 3000 brave young men and women who paid with their lives. Thousand more will continue to pay as they struggle to rebuild their bodies and their lives. We should have done better by them. To leave them there and to send 20,000 more is unconscionable.

We let our leaders send our troops in light and with no plan and justified our indifference because they volunteered we just thanking God it wasn’t our kid. Our leaders are about to do it again. Sending another 20,000 troops is a political decision not a tactical one. Do we sit silent? What do we owe the men and women doing the fighting, bleeding and dying? We cannot sell them out again.

Fighting them there does not mean we don't have to fight them here. I take no security in that fantasy. We have no clue as to who may already be in this country and what they may be planning. This country has not made the investment in that kind of security.

Do you really believe that the bad guys cannot fight on more that one front?
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 09:49 PM   #54
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

And, do you really believe Islamic fascists aren't a bit preoccupied currently in Iraq?


Naming a date for withdrawal is incredibly stupid. Put yourself in the place of an enemy who hears such a date ... they would then know how much longer they have to hold out.


And, regarding the "send your own kids" argument, many of us do have friends and family serving. But this is akin to the current Rice / Boxer debate ... obnoxious slight. [I don't see usually lefties first in line to donate large percentages of their personal wealth to causes they advocate should be paid for with coerced tax dollars ...]


Lefties will keep trashing Bush like righties bashed Clinton ... ignoring the current realities and need to find a solution. Just partisan BS. Pointless debate at this time. The lefties are gaining power, and will soon give the terrorists the edge they need. And, I'm sure when the leftie approach fails, it will be spun as the fault of the righties.


But yes ... let's wait with bated breath to watch the great success of Democrats now. After all ... Lyndon Johnson was a big success in Viet Nam, right? Or are we only to bring up that war when it can be used in the "quagmire" tone ...


If we want a valuable Life After FIRE thread, why don't we discuss defense stock portfolios / mutual funds / ETF's ...
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 09:54 PM   #55
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Do the Democrats have the balls to cut the funding and end the madness? I doubt it. If they don't, they're just as culpable as the Republicans.
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 09:58 PM   #56
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
OK, when do you and/or you kids plan on volunteering for a tour? The price is always small when it is paid with someone else's resources.
Exactly. But, just to bring the point to its logical conclusion: if an individual has made a committment that he/she will not fight regardless of the circumstances, then that person will never pay "the price" (to use Brewer's term). How are we to value this person's judgement on what is worth fighting for? He/she has already passed judgement: Nothing is worth fighting for. Right?

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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 10:15 PM   #57
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Would anyone venture to define 'win' or 'lose' in terms of the current flustercuck?
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 10:24 PM   #58
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Thanks -- seriously -- for the comments from the Bush plan supporters. I hear you saying:
1) you believe fighting in Iraq is keeping the war out of the US.
2) you believe Iraq will ultimately be a US occupied country and it will provide us with an oil supply and insure that weapons are not produced there.
3) you believe that oil supply and the weapons insurance is worth the price in human lives and national debt for you.

Is that a fair assesment? Is there an important point I'm leaving out?
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 10:32 PM   #59
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
And, do you really believe Islamic fascists aren't a bit preoccupied currently in Iraq?
No but I do not think that Iraq is taking their full attention. They can still strike us here.



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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush
Old 01-13-2007, 10:45 PM   #60
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Re: The speech - "The New Way Forward "--by President Bush

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Thanks -- seriously -- for the comments from the Bush plan supporters. I hear you saying:
1) you believe fighting in Iraq is keeping the war out of the US.
2) you believe Iraq will ultimately be a US occupied country and it will provide us with an oil supply and insure that weapons are not produced there.
3) you believe that oil supply and the weapons insurance is worth the price in human lives and national debt for you.

Is that a fair assesment? Is there an important point I'm leaving out?
sgeeee-- No, it is not a fair assessment--too many included absolutes.
1) The fighting in Iraq is not "keeping the war out of the US." I'd say it is "providing a location where the fanatics are choosing to fight us, and where it is more advantageous fo rus to fight them then it would be in the US."
2) Is Germany an "occupied country" today (there are US troops there). I support continuing the effort to stabilize Iraq, but do not favor a US "occupation"--it would create precisely the type of animosity that many opponents of the present policy believe already exixts. I also don't believe Iraq shouldl "provide us with oil" at anything other than market rates. And, their government should be free to partner with non-US firms to do the development of the oilfields. Weapons: Iraq should be expect to live up to the agreements they have signed. We should insist that they do. As long as we are there in force, we can.





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