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Old 12-30-2012, 04:38 PM   #21
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This all just sounds too much like the management track at work!
Read the book first, he makes excellent points and has lots of data to support the fact that the most long term successful companies are those with the best CEO's, and they come from a wide cross-section of industries, including an airline, a steel company, companies with no unions and companies with strong unions.

Having determined in his opinion that the deciding factor in the great companies was their CEO, then he focused on the management style and culture of the companies.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:41 PM   #22
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This all just sounds too much like the management track at work!
That wasn't the intent, but you do have a point. I saw items on the list that apply to 'real life' and even post-work era folk like us, not just the still working class.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:49 PM   #23
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This all just sounds too much like the management track at work!
Before the holiday break, I had to sit down with one of the many layers of management above me to chat about how things are going and any obvious things I saw that could be improved. At the end of the discussion, I was asked if I had ever considered going into management. I suspect I slightly offended the asker of the question, but my response amounted to "hell no!"
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:05 PM   #24
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Before the holiday break, I had to sit down with one of the many layers of management above me to chat about how things are going and any obvious things I saw that could be improved. At the end of the discussion, I was asked if I had ever considered going into management. I suspect I slightly offended the asker of the question, but my response amounted to "hell no!"
Might give you a new perspective...but if your mind is made up.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:11 PM   #25
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Might give you a new perspective...but if your mind is made up.
At my present employer, an entry level manager has a lot of things to do, limited resources with which to do them, and many layers above them second guessing what they have done and countermanding previous orders. There is also a strong expectation tat you will work a lot of uncompensated overtime and regularly, publicly and loudly sing the company fight song. No thanks. Where I am at the moment fits me, and I have the ability to execute on mission critical tasks requiring my very rare skillset with minimal management help. They seem to be happy, and I can live with it since I mostly get left alone to get the job done. At this point in my career, I don't want any extra headaches or hours worked, especially at the rate of pay they are prepared to offer.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:08 PM   #26
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Most first level supervisors work a lot of un compensated time. Striving to get another level up so they can work even more. Maybe one out of 25 do. Far better way to spend your time is planning FIRE rather than chasing the rainbow.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:26 PM   #27
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Most first level supervisors work a lot of un compensated time. Striving to get another level up so they can work even more. Maybe one out of 25 do. Far better way to spend your time is planning FIRE rather than chasing the rainbow.
Obviously it's easier to reach FI if you're paid more, like management. But we all make the choices that meet our needs. I wouldn't have been able to RE without moving into management early on...
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:56 PM   #28
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Read the book first, he makes excellent points and has lots of data to support the fact that the most long term successful companies are those with the best CEO's, and they come from a wide cross-section of industries, including an airline, a steel company, companies with no unions and companies with strong unions.
I was actually talking about the comments in this thread.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:59 PM   #29
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Obviously it's easier to reach FI if you're paid more, like management. But we all make the choices that meet our needs. I wouldn't have been able to RE without moving into management early on...
Obviously you were not tempted to increase your lifestyle to match your management position. Most every one I saw at work did with a few exceptions. Even the young new hires drove more expensive cars than I did.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:09 PM   #30
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I was actually talking about the comments in this thread.
oops, my mistake
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:17 PM   #31
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Obviously you were not tempted to increase your lifestyle to match your management position. Most every one I saw at work did with a few exceptions. Even the young new hires drove more expensive cars than I did.
Actually I did 'increase our lifestyle' somewhat, but we still practiced LBYM first and foremost. We grasped the meaning of 'the most important things in life aren't things.' We gratefully lived/live better than most, but didn't care to keep up with our contemporaries (all still working BTW). Taking the management path offers options...you don't have to be self-absorbed and heartless like some would like to believe.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:21 PM   #32
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Obviously it's easier to reach FI if you're paid more, like management. But we all make the choices that meet our needs. I wouldn't have been able to RE without moving into management early on...
In my line of w*rk (physician) earnings go down when you go into management. The quickest way to FIRE is to do as much clinical work as possible, to the exclusion of every other activity. Put yourself on the call schedule one night in four, and work every day in between. With any luck you will be so exhausted you won't have time to spend any money. Just ask Rachel!

But I'm finished with all that now, thank goodness!
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:22 PM   #33
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:29 PM   #34
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oops, my mistake
No prob, I wasn't specific.
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:14 PM   #35
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Is this a joke, or do you mean "accepting responsibility for her failures"? I think the list maker means that people should accept responsibility for their own failures.

I think that's what the list maker meant as well - just am more amused misunderstanding. But really, my gal accepts responsibility for damn near anything around her; has an expansive view of her sphere of influence, and tries to fix it all.

Even that is controversial. Many psychologists feel that laying off one's failures onto circumstance is a good strategy for staying happy and undepressed. Seems to work for politicians and CEOs.

Most of my life I've graded myself on a curve, and a C was satisfactory. Lately I have thought that I might have been able to do better. Still, we all have some narrow passages to steer through, and I suppose we should be gratefuil for not breaking up on the rocks.

Her dad was more a "why didn't you get an A+ instead of just an A kinda guy". positive and negative results, as with most things.

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Old 12-30-2012, 08:16 PM   #36
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Taking the management path offers options...you don't have to be self-absorbed and heartless like some would like to believe.
You must not have worked for the same company as me. I would have described most management at my company as near sociopathic. Calling them self-absorbed and heartless would be too kind.

But not all. I am still friends with two of my managers who are retired. They would agree with my statement as well.
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:05 AM   #37
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Obviously it's easier to reach FI if you're paid more, like management. But we all make the choices that meet our needs. I wouldn't have been able to RE without moving into management early on...
Nor I, those ESO that increased almost 20 times put me over the "number".

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Obviously you were not tempted to increase your lifestyle to match your management position. Most every one I saw at work did with a few exceptions. Even the young new hires drove more expensive cars than I did.
I drove the same old Ford Tempo for the first 15 years of my management status. We did, however, upgrade our house. Our old one was paid for. We bought the new one with cash. Then we sold the old one. Not too many 'pawns' have the income to do that.


No-one mentioned this part. In some ways it makes anything else you did trivial.

One of the nice perks of management is the ability to further the careers of worthy people. I retired from mega-corp 5+ years ago. I was one of 4 (at the time) middle management people. Just before xmas, I dropped in for the first time in 3 years. Turned out I knew about 1/2 of the employees in my old department. It also turned out that 5 of 6 middle management positions were held by people I had hired and mentored. All were really good people.

You can make a difference, even if you join managemant (as I did) for the bucks.
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:33 AM   #38
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The Success of What?

Doesn't most society measure one's success with wealth?

I considered myself successful in divorcing two of my ex-wives. Unsuccessful in achieving my ER Goal due to my success in getting out of miserable life that I had in marriage. I'm happy but over work and underpaid.
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Old 12-31-2012, 07:39 AM   #39
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I like the list since I meet most of the criteria except for planning and journaling. Shows you can do OK without those attributes. And I suspect kept to do lists for the wrong reason. The management BS is you need them to prioritize but I kept them because I would completely forget stuff otherwise. Practice implemented after I missed an important meeting and had to make up a BS emergency to cover my butt.
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Old 12-31-2012, 07:59 AM   #40
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I like the list since I meet most of the criteria except for planning and journaling. Shows you can do OK without those attributes. And I suspect kept to do lists for the wrong reason. The management BS is you need them to prioritize but I kept them because I would completely forget stuff otherwise. Practice implemented after I missed an important meeting and had to make up a BS emergency to cover my butt.
I personally think it's good traits of one's character but hardly doubt The Success Indicator. If one wants to become a successful long distance runner, does having those attributes help. I think not.

What attributes one needs to be happy? Does achieving happiness considered success? Much like no one can tell others how much they need to FIRE.

Success is very subjective. In the eyes of my younger self, I'm a failure. But with two divorces and two career changes, I'm success when I look myself in the mirror. Hate working but happy I'm achieving my savings goals and working toward FIRe without E but hope at least little e (much later than I had planned but hopefully in next 4 to 6 years)
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