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Old 04-17-2008, 03:46 PM   #21
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Here's an interesting exerpt from a CNN piece on the FLDS, quoting 73 year old Jenny Larsen who fled the church with her mother in 1946:

"So how did she know polygamy wasn't for her? Larson recalls seeing her father, Vergel, smack her mother for expressing jealousy over his second wife, Mae.

"There was no way in hell I was going to live that way," Larson said.

And Larson quipped of the men hounding her for her hand in marriage when she was 11: "Some of them were so ugly I wondered how they could have sex without putting a sack over their head..."
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:29 PM   #22
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This is the kind of case where Janet Reno should have been brought in to apply her form of "old fashioned justice" to the situation!
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:53 PM   #23
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Just read a news piece that the first day of the court hearing today was utter chaos.

One thing that made no sense to me was, for example, a mother who looked to be of legal age herself had one 5 year old child who was swept up in the raid. Now if the allegation is centered around pubescent girls marrying & bearing children by old geezers or even a 21 yr old man, what does that have to do with the mother of, and, the 5 yr old?

Just seems to me they (authorities) took too much of a shot gun approach.

I had the feeling from the LK interview that the mothers did distinguish their OWN child/ren from those of their sister-wives or other women's in the compound. One woman spoke of her youngest being handicapped & that she was the only one who knew how to care for him.

As to the "look on the women's faces".... very flat affect is what came to my mind, despite the fact that some did shed tears, etc.
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:37 PM   #24
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Let me do the math here, I am of legal age with a 5-year old child. Is that my oldest child? If not, how old is that child? If I have a 5 year old child it was probably conceived 6 years ago. How old was I at that time?

If I am 21 with a 5 year old child I was probably 15 at the time of conception. Were that the case the child's father committed statutory rape. It is a dangerous place to raise girls, at the very least.

Oh yes, if a mother consented to her daughter's statutory rape she is guilty of child abuse. Frankly I would go so far as to state that any adult who knew of that event is complicit in the act.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:10 PM   #25
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Here are links to a couple of interesting articles from Texas Lawyer magazine.
Law.com - Polygamist Compound Removal Cases to Test Texas Civil Justice System

Texas Lawyer - Lawyers Fight to Be Heard in CPS Removal Cases involving FLDS
The first, from a week ago, gives a rundown on the legal issues and the matters before the court in the hearing held today. The second report was filed today. It includes some quotes from some of the lawyers participating in the hearing and various Texas legal experts.

I'm impressed that 400+ lawyers from all over the state volunteered to serve as representatives of the children. Skeptics may say it's because they are publicity hounds or they're looking for a payday. That's likely true for a few, but I'm more inclined to believe there's plenty of good souls in the bunch.

Would you drop what you are otherwise being paid hundreds of dollars an hour to do for the opportunity to go to San Angelo with prospects of sleeping on a couch, eating cafeteria food and (maybe) making $100 per court appearance?
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:43 AM   #26
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Skeptics may say it's because they are publicity hounds or they're looking for a payday.

That's where I'd place my bet. And I'm not generally a skeptic, just a realist. But, regardless of their motives, it's probably good they're volunteering.

I wonder if any of these same attorneys volunteer to advocate for the thousands of children in Texas who are wards of the state, bouncing from foster home to foster home and also very much in need of someone to be on their team?
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:28 AM   #27
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I'll reserve judgment until the made-for-TV movie comes out.

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Now if the allegation is centered around pubescent girls marrying & bearing children by old geezers or even a 21 yr old man, what does that have to do with the mother of, and, the 5 yr old?
I heard it reported that the law says that if there is suspicion that one kid in a household is being abused, all must be removed. They are treating the whole place as one household.
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:38 AM   #28
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I heard it reported that the law says that if there is suspicion that one kid in a household is being abused, all must be removed. They are treating the whole place as one household.
If, and that certainly is an if that needs to be proved, not alleged, the prophet is systematically farming out under-aged girls to adults for conjugal puposes, then no child should be left in the compound. The allegations amount to charges that this is a community of abuse. The mothers undoubtedly love their children. But, IF the allegations are true, the mothers have contributed to the abuse. At a minimum they should be required to raise their children outside of the compound with some court supervision.
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:44 AM   #29
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Has anyone else read, Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer (of Into thin Air and Into the Wild fame)? It is a chilling portrait of murder and craziness in another FLDS sect. Like all of Karkauer's stuff, it is a good read and a fascinating look into a little known corner of life.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:24 AM   #30
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PS in Texas, marriage before the age of 18 requires parental consent (which probably would have been no problem in the case of the FLDS children). But, marriage before the age of 16 requires a court order. Of course, they children might have gotten married in another state--Utah allows marriage as young as 15 with the approval of a juvenile court.
A mother of 8 children left the sect some years back, and took her children with her. Part of her motivation was disapproval of the trend toward "marrying" younger and younger girls off.

She wrote a book-prior to this police action. When one of her daughters reached age 18, she denounced the mother as wicked, and returned to the sect.

The older woman also reported that formerly, most of the females marrying were over 20. Then a new leader came along, and the age went down to 18 or so. Relatively recent apparently is the change to very young girls.

Another thing is that many of them are not married in a legal sense of having had a marriage ceremony sanctioned by the state. Partly this is so they can collect welfare as single mothers, according to this author and former member.

Ha
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Old 04-21-2008, 04:11 PM   #31
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When I saw this video -

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

I realized how sick and twisted some people can be. Carolyn Jessop describes how her husband, the father of her 8 children, used a form of water torture on her babies to "break" them. It created a fear in the babies, but they wouldn't remember what happened. This sounds awfully close to "waterboarding", a method of torture used on prisoners.

The part I'm referring to is about about 2:05 or so.
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:59 PM   #32
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Regarding genetic testing to identify the parents of each child:

"Genetic testing could be completed in as little as a few days, according to Howard Coleman, CEO of Genelex, a Seattle-based commercial genetics lab, which is not involved with the Texas case. It could take several weeks longer, however, to construct a family tree from the results. Once they are traced, however, the children's origins may offer a fascinating look at the family structure of the secretive polygamist sect, as well as insight into the emergence of a tragic birth defect that has plagued the community."

At the heart of the identity problem are the group's commitment to "celestial marriage" polygamy and its custom of allowing first cousins to marry. "Your family tree shouldn't be a wreath," says Randy Mankin, editor of the El Dorado Success newspaper..."

Tracing the Polygamists' Family Tree - TIME
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:04 PM   #33
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Another thing is that many of them are not married in a legal sense of having had a marriage ceremony sanctioned by the state. Partly this is so they can collect welfare as single mothers, according to this author and former member.
Along those same lines...

Families whose children are affected [with a severe form of mental retardation called Fumarase Deficiency] often avail themselves of state-funded medical care, consistent with the FLDS philosophy of seeking government aid despite their suspicion of government which they call "bleeding the Beast."

Tracing the Polygamists' Family Tree - TIME
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:10 PM   #34
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If, and that certainly is an if that needs to be proved, not alleged, the prophet is systematically farming out under-aged girls to adults for conjugal puposes, then no child should be left in the compound.
Warren Jeffs, the (former?) top Prophet of the FLDS, has been convicted of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14 year old. He "encouraged" her to marry her 19 year old cousin. Some say he is still the head Prophet.

ABC News: From Behind Bars, Polygamist Still Reigns

"Though Warren Jeffs is facing up to life in prison, the fundamentalist Mormon leader will continue to control the lives of thousands of his followers, people familiar with the polygamist sect say."
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You know what ticks me off about CPS....
Old 03-15-2009, 11:22 PM   #35
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You know what ticks me off about CPS....

What hacks me off about CPS, they usually pin the wrong people or put them through all kinds of undue stress, if they pin or "investigate" at all. My sister was married to a creep that had been overseas in the military and came back to the US of A, kind of weird. He would hold his infant while doing unreasonable things, he would shake the baby when the baby would cry. This is all in Tennessee mind you. Well, my sister gets scared and moves in with family in Texas. Texas CPS, not only didn't really think there was reason to investigate, but tried to pin abuse on my sister!!!! Of course she ended up with full custody later after their half-a$$ investigation had finalized, but due to brain damage, the child has been getting evaluated weekly by the State's ECI program citing that he might be handicapped in all sorts of ways due to brain damage from an injury he recieved from his father-WHICH IS NOTED WITH HOSPITAL RECORDS AND POLICE REPORTS....however, he still gets unsupervised vistation according to the standard Posession order. This is shocking! Even more so, I have been dealing with an unstable person that started off my divorce by threatening me and I had no idea who she was. Later on, after my divorce, my daughter comes back to me with a neck injury (documented) and nightmares and screaming fits ( 4 years old ), stating this girl beat her in the head and threatened her if she told anyone, she would do it again. This girl also said to my daughter that she hated her because she hated her mommy and she would hurt her mommy too. A psychiatrist backed all of this up, only to be dismissed by CPS.....which, instead of investigating, called my daughter's father to ask what happened, but because it was a "child custody case", which wasn't true, they said there was not enough information to do any further investigating. WTH Yeah, CPS, something our tax dollars should really be paying for. Anyone else think that maybe part of the New Stimuls Bill should include firing everyone that works for CPS and actually hiring people that have a credible background instead of volunteers and students? All of the accidents and deaths of children that should've been stopped in their tracks, yet the ever remaining incompetence of CPS prevails and people still report abuse to them?? Its disturbing to think that people are being turned away from proper investigations because of the lack caring, experience, and stupidity. Who is CPS, who is each individual, and their background, that is working for CPS? What makes them a credible field agent? Honestly, it seems like any Harry or Mo, could be a CPS agent at this point and probably still do a better job. Anyone else?





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Texas Child Protective Services (CPS), the agency who is behind the raid, has been under tremendous pressure in the past few years for failing to carry out it's responsibility in all areas of the state. A number of high-profile child abuse cases have made the headlines, most involving the death of a small child where CPS had the opportunity to intervene but failed to do so before the tragedy. I think this is coloring some of the actions we see taking place. CPS is trying to show it can and will do what it takes to protect children from abuse.

Having relatives in the general area where the FLDS compound is located, I know the authorities have had them under close surveillance for several years. Those who leave the fold of the religious group tell a consistent story of a 'brainwashed' society led by a relatively small group of men who have multiple wives. Once girls reach puberty they are married to one of these men at the direction of the church elders. Male children are supposedly "culled" as teenagers by excommunicating a number of them (the "Lost Boys"). This maintains a high ratio of women to men in order to provide multiple wives to the men who head up the families in the church. (Notice that very few males - of any age - are appearing in the media.)

I'd have very little sympathy for what the state is doing if it was based only on polygamy. Unfortunately the history of this group indicates the forced marriage of girls as young as 12 to men who in some cases are 50 or older. Not something I think we should allow to go unchallenged in the name of freedom of religion.

No doubt this is traumatic for the children and these poor women who have known nothing other than this lifestyle. The fact the male leadership of this religious group is parading these pathetic women in front of the media to defend their actions says volumes.
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Old 03-16-2009, 08:31 AM   #36
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Here are links to a couple of interesting articles from Texas Lawyer magazine.
Law.com - Polygamist Compound Removal Cases to Test Texas Civil Justice System

Texas Lawyer - Lawyers Fight to Be Heard in CPS Removal Cases involving FLDS
The first, from a week ago, gives a rundown on the legal issues and the matters before the court in the hearing held today. The second report was filed today. It includes some quotes from some of the lawyers participating in the hearing and various Texas legal experts.

I'm impressed that 400+ lawyers from all over the state volunteered to serve as representatives of the children. Skeptics may say it's because they are publicity hounds or they're looking for a payday. That's likely true for a few, but I'm more inclined to believe there's plenty of good souls in the bunch.

Would you drop what you are otherwise being paid hundreds of dollars an hour to do for the opportunity to go to San Angelo with prospects of sleeping on a couch, eating cafeteria food and (maybe) making $100 per court appearance?
Lots of hungry lawyers in TX these days. (take my word for it )

BTW, did they mention whether or not the cafeteria served a hot meal? That could be a deal breaker were one to find one's self in such a position.
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:07 PM   #37
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The Texas CPS is like most other social services these days...STRETCHED far beyond what they are funded for. One of my best friends is a Texas CPS agent. She's educated (criminal justice degree), overworked and totally UNDERPAID. Her job is stressful beyond what most of us can imagine. She has lived with death threats, being called out in the middle of the night to remove tiny children from horrible situations, testifying in court in the most depressing cases. I wouldn't take on a CPS job for any amount of money; it is an extremely high burnout career.
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