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The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-27-2005, 10:39 AM   #1
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The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math



Gil Milbauer
Wednesday, March 09, 2005
Bathroom Justice!

It's time for a really controversial issue...

If a bathroom is shared among male(s) and female(s), should the toilet seat always be put down, or should it stay where it was after its last use?

(Let's assume this is a private bathroom; so the issue is one of practicality, rather than presentability. Even if it isn't, it's easy enough to change the policy when entertaining.)

The first question that comes to my mind when considering which policy is best is "Which policy requires people to adjust the seat position the most?"

Let's call one policy AD (Always Down) and the other candidate policy CWN (Change When Needed). There are other potential candidates, but I think these are the main interesting ones.

Even without going through the gory details of the math, I think you can see that the answer is that AD requires more seat adjustments.

In AD, all of the seat adjustments are driven by a male urinating. Whenever this happens the seat must be raised before use, and lowered afterwards. So the number of seat adjustments in a day is twice the number of male urinations in a day (let's call M1 the event and m1 the average number of M1 events in a day); so we have 2m1.

At first, I suspected that CWN would be better unless the ratio of females to males rose above a certain point, and then AD would be better. But, that turns out not to be the case.

In CWN, the worst case is also 2m1 (two adjustments for each M1, but at different times). But, if there are ever consecutive M1 events, we save two adjustments (one after the earlier M1 and another before the later one) In most cases, I think CWN will yield a number significantly below 2m1, but as we change the scenario (e.g. by adding females to the environment) to increase the frequency of non-M1 events (F1, F2, M2), consecutive M1s will become less and less frequent and we approach 2m1 as a worst case limit.

Note also that the answer to another interesting question: "On whom does the burden of adjusting the seat fall under each policy?" is that under AD the entire burden falls on the male(s), and under CWN at least half of the burden falls on the male(s) (because it will always be a male who raises the seat, and it will sometimes be a male who lowers it), and some falls on the females.

So, it seems that CWN is superior to AD with respect to both seat-adjustment effort, and a more equitable sharing of the seat-adjustment burden. AD imposes the entire burden on the males, and the burden is higher than what CWN divides between the genders.

"OK" I can hear some women saying, "But the issue isn't just seat-adjustment effort. It's also the effort to remember to check the seat before using the toilet. How does that compare?"

I'm glad you asked.

Under AD, the remembering burden is also proportional to 2m1 (the male(s) remember to check and raise (sounds like poker!) the seat before M1 and remember to lower it after M1). Once again, the entire remembering burden falls on the males. Females can just sit down with confidence.

Under CWN, everyone has to check before each use, but nobody has to remember to make an adjustment afterwards. So for males the number of checks is m1+m2 and for females it's f1+f2. Since I think it's fair to assume that m1>m2, this is better for the males than 2m1. And, the burden is similar for the females (compared to males) assuming that they use the toilet approximately the same number of times throughout the day. Admittedly, under CWN, the total number of rememberings will be more than under AD if 2m1 < (m1 + m2 + f1 + f2), which will probably happen whenever there are more females than males, but the burden will be shared and it will be better for each person under CWN than for the average male under AD.

So, in conclusion, it seems clear to me that CWN is superior, in terms of both efficiency and burden-equity, to AD.

So, ladies, will you do the reasonable thing and agree to a CWN policy?

Or, will you stubbornly insist on AD?
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-27-2005, 10:54 AM   #2
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTien
It's time for a really controversial issue...
Damn, just when you thought Dory had banned *****...

BTW, Dan, the only other male in our house doesn't use a toilet. "CWN" would definitely have an adverse impact on my remaining lifespan, and they can rotate shifts longer than I can stay awake.
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-27-2005, 11:07 AM   #3
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

DanTien, there are variables you didn't consider. The ratio of men to women in the family. I also think that women pee more often than men. Men pee outside sometimes.

A guy I know once told me that not only does he put the seat down after using, he takes toilet paper and wipes the rim of the bowl first. He said his mother taught him that and he taught his sons the same. Now isn't that nice.
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-27-2005, 11:18 AM   #4
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

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Originally Posted by Martha
DanTien, there are variables you didn't consider. The ratio of men to women in the family. I also think that women pee more often than men. Men pee outside sometimes.

A guy I know once told me that not only does he put the seat down after using, he takes toilet paper and wipes the rim of the bowl first. He said his mother taught him that and he taught his sons the same. Now isn't that nice.
Martha, please let's keep the variables out of this, they only confuse me...I prefer gross generalizations.
True, I do know of a man that pees in the woods behind his house whenever there is a full moon...
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-27-2005, 12:41 PM   #5
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

Another option*
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai...dm998000c.html

Japanese man's birthright to stand up while relieving himself may soon become a thing of the past, according to Weekly Playboy (2/8).

Matsu****a Electric Works has discovered that one in three Japanese men now spend a penny while sitting down, almost double the number at the end of the last century.

If the current trend persists, by 2030, all Japanese guys will be perched on the potty to pee instead of standing up for themselves, as has largely been the case until now.

Armed with the results of its annual studies on peeing habits, Matsu****a Denko developed the world's first toilet adapted for the comfort of men who sit down to piddle, coming up with an enormous hit.

"We got a specialist chair designer involved in the project to come up with something that would feel good to sit down on. After that, we got 500 employees to actually pee in a variety of different sizes that would please both men and women of all shapes and sizes from somebody rivaling the biggest American football player to the tiniest woman," a Matsu****a Electric's insider says. "The fruit of our studies was a toilet where the bowl is 1.5 times the width of the standard toilet bowl."


On the other hand

"Nature designed men so they could pee standing up, which allowed them to urinate in the fastest possible time in case they faced attack from an enemy," Katagiri tells Weekly Playboy. "Besides, the pleasure gained from being able to stand tall while you watch the wee cascading down has got to be one of the greatest things about being a guy.


Edit Hey why did the company name change to ****?
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-27-2005, 01:09 PM   #6
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

Women have the ability to solve this issue!

From Sarah on The PoopReport:

Women Peeing Standing

Any of you ladies here on PoopReport will no doubt be familiar with the Raunchy Restroom problem. You're at a concert or a club, or even out hiking, and suddenly the need to pee arises (as it is wont to do, from time to time).

So you exit the dance floor in search of the ladies' room, and you're confronted with a horror of a choice: the stall where someone obviously was having technical problems with their pissing equipment (because there's a mess all over the toilet seat), or the toilet with the broken flush that people have continued to use, and use, and use... practically to overflowing.

It's not a pretty sight, and not a pleasant concept even to bandy about in casual conversation. However, it's an all too common problem.

So you're faced with three equally unsatisfactory choices: attempting to eliminate the mess; trying to hold it in until you find a better bathroom; or working out those gluteal muscles and squatting so that your rear is just hovering over the toilet.

These choices all suck. But luckily for us ladyfolk, more than one enterprising soul has devised a handheld gadget which would enable a woman to PEE STANDING UP.



As a woman, I acknowledge that learning how to pee standing is certainly something that would come in handy on a number of occasions, and would be rather impressive to boot.

That's why I'm relieved (heh) to have discovered The Woman's Guide On How To Pee Standing. They offer advice on two methods -- the natural way ("The Finger-assist Method") and the easier way ("The TravelMate-assist Method"). According to them, both methods are PRACTICAL -- "No more hovering over filthy toilet seats or getting poison ivy on your bum!" VERSATILE -- "There is the 'device-assisted' method and the 'device-free' method." And last but not least, IMPRESSIVE -- "Amaze yourself and your friends."

If that's not enough to convince you that women should pee standing, read the accolades heaped upon the TravelMate device. One woman from Long Island states, "I can stand up and pee outside with the best of them now."

I'd probably be willing to use the device in desperate circumstances, but I'm not sure I really want to picture it being used. Too late, though -- the site contains a far-too- graphic depiction of a woman making use of the TravelMate. I really didn't need to see how "Brenda 'pees through the fly' using a TravelMate." I think I'm going to have nightmares, after I stop rolling on the floor laughing.

The disposable P-Mate.

But watch out, TravelMate -- because you've got a competitor. Cleverly named, The P-Mate is a paper device specially shaped to enable a woman to pee into a narrow vase, or a nasty toilet, or out in the woods where the Pope does his business.

To be honest, I think it's a pretty good idea, and the P-Mate has the advantage of being disposable (at least I hope it is -- eww. I'm not putting it back into my bag, that's for sure).

So men beware, because next time there's a line for the ladies' room, we might be invading the men's room. Though, from what I've heard, I don't want to go in there ever.

-- Sarah

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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-27-2005, 02:56 PM   #7
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTien
If a bathroom is shared among male(s) and female(s), should the toilet seat always be put down, or should it stay where it was after its last use?
Put a urinal next to the toilet. Problem solved.
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-27-2005, 03:27 PM   #8
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-28-2005, 11:08 PM   #9
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

This has always been a no brainer to me. It is common courtesy for the men to accomodate the women and leave the seat down when they are done.

If I lived with someone really tall, I wouldn't make a point of putting everything on the lowest possible shelf, or on the highest (out of reach) shelf if I lived with someone really short. If I lived with a blind person, I wouldn't rearrange the furniture every couple of days and not tell them.

This is not to imply that women are disabled, but if they've got to sit to do the job, then "seat down" should be the default position when someone leaves the bathroom for the next person. Shoot, a guy's got to sit some of the time too, so figure that for two people (one each male and female) in the household the seat needs to be down a good 60-80% of the time no matter what.

Quote:
Though, from what I've heard, I don't want to go in there ever.
I can't tell you the number of times I went in the men's room (any of them) at work to find that some one with a serious passive/agressive issue had pissed all over the toilet seat. It has to be deliberate when it is that frequent, and that thorough a job. There are some sick puppies out there in the world, especially in the bathrooms.

cheers,
Michael
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-29-2005, 05:40 AM   #10
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Michael
* There are some sick puppies out there in the world, especially in the bathrooms.

cheers,
Michael
A couple of them have even found their way to this board, metaphorically
peeing on our collective toilet seat.

JG
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-29-2005, 10:07 AM   #11
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-29-2005, 10:13 AM   #12
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

I'll say it again. It has nothing to do with the toilet seat.

This is like that joke about the woman who asks her husband to pass the sugar at the breakfast table but she accidentally says "You #$^%ing bastard! You ruined my life!"
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-29-2005, 10:18 AM   #13
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

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Originally Posted by ()
I'll say it again.* It has nothing to do with the toilet seat.

This is like that joke about the woman who asks her husband to pass the sugar at the breakfast table but she accidentally says "You #$^%ing bastard!* You ruined my life!"
ROFL - Exactly!

At the risk of TMI here are two comments from the female point of view, which seems to be lacking in this discussion:

1. We keep the seat up all the time because it is the dogs drinking bowl, and I hate sitting down on the drips he leaves behind. Keeping it up keeps it clean and dry.

2. Peeing in public: learn to squat without touching. It's a great workout for your legs, and not really all that challenging. Multitasking at its finest
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 10-29-2005, 12:41 PM   #14
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

There are some sick puppies out there in the world, especially in the bathrooms.

cheers,
Michael



A couple of them have even found their way to this board

JG




I thought of you JG when I saw this !


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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 11-03-2005, 08:05 PM   #15
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

Man sues Home Depot after using glue-covered toilet

BOULDER, Colo. (AP) Home Depot was sued by a shopper from a Kentucky store who claims he got stuck to a restroom toilet seat because a prankster had smeared it with glue.

Bob Dougherty, 57, accused employees of ignoring his cries for help for about 15 minutes because they thought he was kidding.

"They left me there, going through all that stress," Dougherty told The (Boulder) Daily Camera. "They just let me rot."
...on the pot!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...let-seat_x.htm

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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 11-03-2005, 09:28 PM   #16
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

I feel sorry for this guy, but would you sit down on a toilet deat w/o having a good look, maybe a few wipes, and then placing one of those paper thingies too?

I mean glue is only one of the many yuckmobiles that are found on toilet seats.

One of my OGFs got clap from a toilet seat. Really, she did. She swore it was true.

Ha
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 11-04-2005, 11:24 AM   #17
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

DanTien - you have a future in writing IRS tax code.
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math
Old 11-04-2005, 12:31 PM   #18
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Re: The Toilet and The Seat - Let's Do The Math

My wife and I just put the seat AND cover down after use. It's simple and looks a bit nicer. Plus it keeps the pets from playing in the water and making a mess. Problem solved. Next!
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:14 PM   #19
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Well, now we're on to the really important matters in life. I can pee standing provided I'm not wearing a long dress, but it sure is nice to have a clean seat.

I have sent the mathematical analysis to a couple whose wedding I recently attended. They need the real lowdown on how to make the marriage work. OTOH, maybe that's why they built a house with four bathrooms.

One could employ the same mathematical methods to analyze the decision whether to put a cup on a saucer upside down, or not.

These are very important decisions. Mininize energy use, minimize global warming!
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:31 PM   #20
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Like Austin Explorer, everyone in our house puts the lid (or lid and seat) down prior to flushing. We do it for sanitary purposes due to things going into aerosol during the flush. We saw on one of those 48 Hours germ shows you can significantly reduce the amount of germs on bathroom surfaces if you flush with the lid down.
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