There is hope after all

[Walt34]

Huckabee vows to deport all illegal aliens*-*-*The Washington Times, America's Newspaper

"TIGERVILLE, S.C. Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee yesterday continued to move to the right on immigration during this year's presidential campaign, signing a pledge to enforce immigration laws and to make all illegal aliens go home."

About time. I hope he can pull it off although it's unlikely.

[W2R]

Several of the candidates have positions on individual issues that I like. But when you look at their positions on ALL the issues, none of the candidates really light my fire (yet).

And primaries in Louisiana are on February 9th! What to do, what to do.... :confused: AAAARGH! :confused:

[FUEGO]

Oh crap - I better get my house re-roofed before next January, huh? Prices will be sure to skyrocket - that is if you can find a contractor w/ a crew available. I guess with the housing crash it's just as well we deport 'em. They'll be out of jobs anyway since nobody's building houses any more.

[megacorp-firee]

[soap box on]
gee Walt, I hope you mow your own lawn and other home owner services, do all of your own home improvements, don't go out to eat at nice restaurants, ...etc. because the price of these will sky rocket if this happens. My observation is that, at least in large urban areas, a large part of the infrastructure and services jobs at the low paying end are being filled by immigrants (both legal and illegal). You may argue that they are taking jobs from Americans, but I have found that each generation of new immigrants starts at whatever level they have to and each successive generation works it's way up the food chain. We all contribute to the growth of this country.

This 'protectionism' seems to have a growing following, ever since 9/11 and our economic slump. It easy for politicians to rile the constituency with this issue. I suspect that if we did not have downturn in jobs and jobs moving offshore, then illegal immigration would not be an issue. After all, it hadn't really been one for the past 300 years. Only when things 'go bad' do some (more) people start on this rant. There has always been those that don't like anyone 'different'. Their day seems to have arrived. IMO it's a sad thing.

So I think you have to be careful sometimes about what you wish for. The consequences could be something that we are not ready to face.

Now don't get me wrong. I am not an advocate for illegal anything. I am just pointing out that there may be some 'hidden agendas' out there, or at the very least, some 'scapegoating'.

After spending the last few months traveling in outside the US, believe me, you don't want to be without our 'god given rights' to what we have.
It has given me a greater appreciation for the life style that we have been able to build in America. Simple stuff that we take for granted, like regular garbage collection for instance. All of this was built on (legal and illegal) immigrants from all over the globe. Every group started out as immigrants here (except maybe the American Indians) and some illegal. All have added to the make up of this country.
[soap box off]

[Trek]

Someone needs to see the movie:

A Day Without a Mexican (2004)

[ladelfina]

good articles in The Economist recently about the beneficial economic impact of immigration, to both the sending and the receiving countries:

Quote:

... History has shown that immigration encourages prosperity. Tens of millions of Europeans who made it to the New World in the 19th and 20th centuries improved their lot, just as the near 40m foreign-born are doing in America today. Many migrants return home with new skills, savings, technology and bright ideas. Remittances to poor countries in 2006 were worth at least $260 billion—more, in many countries, than aid and foreign investment combined. Letting in migrants does vastly more good for the world's poor than stuffing any number of notes into Oxfam tins. The movement of people also helps the rich world. Prosperous countries with greying workforces rely ever more on young foreigners. Indeed, advanced economies compete vigorously for outsiders' skills. Around a third of the Americans who won Nobel prizes in physics in the past seven years were born abroad. About 40% of science and engineering PhDs working in America are immigrants. Around a third of Silicon Valley companies were started by Indians and Chinese. The low-skilled are needed too, especially in farming, services and care for children and the elderly. It is no coincidence that countries that welcome immigrants—such as Sweden, Ireland, America and Britain—have better economic records than those that shun them. ... Above all, perspective is needed. The vast population movements of the past four decades have not brought the social strife the scaremongers predicted. On the contrary, they have offered a better life for millions of migrants and enriched the receiving countries both culturally and materially. But to preserve these great benefits in the future, politicians need the courage not only to speak up against the populist tide in favour of the gains immigration can bring, but also to deal honestly with the problems it can sometimes cause.

Global migration | Keep the borders open | Economist.com

There was a whole Special Report in the Jan. 3 edition that is worth checking out if you have access, like at the library.

When DH and I went to live in the US.. it took a full year to even get a provisory green card (though this is more or less an automatic right as my husband.. barring that he's a felon, or something).. THEN we were in the US THREE YEARS still with the temp. card which had expired after one! We had already gone through submitting all the subsequent look-see affadavits and other documentation to prove the marriage was real.. but continued to hear nothing. And the immigration people are worse than any customer service in the world.. they are 100% incommunicado and you will never know if they lost your file or what... The US has NOT been interested in getting its act together regarding LEGAL immigration, so I have a hard time imagining how they are effectively deal with other cases.. After three years, we just bailed.. and will have to start all over if we change our minds in the future. Several months after our moving back to Italy my mom got forwarded a "do not forward" notice to come in and do more interviewing/processing for the permanent card.. Gee thanks! Too little too late. So there's one more family who could be spending and contributing in the US, gone. Thousand$ spent and time wasted for nothing.. It's a completely unfriendly process even for the "whitest", most-educated and richest.. just imagine for anyone else!!

You can't even imagine the obstacles they place.. once you apply you can't travel (fine, if this were to take six months)... and a million things can happen in FOUR YEARS.. people move, they have kids, they can get married, get divorced, they could die!! The gov. needs to be able to move on legitimate visas and requests in something more approaching a human, not a glacial, time scale. [Hey, the glaciers are speeding up.. the gov. is slowing down.. ]

The US's heavy-handed tactics are steering away foreign students and businesspeople who will just go elsewhere. 'Our' loss.

[Zathras]

With Huckabee's stance on wanting to rewrite the constitution to incorporate "God's standards" and his dispbelief in sound scientific theory (evolution at the very least) I wouldn't trust him to govern a meeting much less the country.

[Walt34]

I fully understand that conditions in other countries are not so good. Their work ethics are admirable, no quibble there either.

What I have a problem with is any sort of amnesty program for those who ignored the regulations, said "I don't care, me first" and just crossed the border. Then they want the same privileges as those who played by the rules.

Does that not offend anyone's sense of fairness?

It does mine.

[ladelfina]

That sounds right on the surface.. but you have to look at the context and where the system is broken to begin with. If immigration were relatively easy and legal and handled well, then the percentage of illegals would be diminished. Like in Italy, if rules weren't so absurd, there'd be less incentive to be a lawbreaker.

If a traffic light is broken.. you can't blame people for going through the intersection. And for pretty much all the immigrants that risk the journey, there's someone on the other side to offer them work. If I need my crops picked now.. that means now, and not in four years, or ten...

[megacorp-firee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt34 I fully understand that conditions in other countries are not so good. Their work ethics are admirable, no quibble there either. What I have a problem with is any sort of amnesty program for those who ignored the regulations, said "I don't care, me first" and just crossed the border. Then they want the same privileges as those who played by the rules. Does that not offend anyone's sense of fairness? It does mine.

As I said, I am not one to support anything illegal, however, in the midst of all of this political (read terrorism) and economic unrest, the government would be better off focusing on the problems that will better the life of it's citizens. Primary focus on the UNPRODUCTIVE activity of rounding up illegals and building walls along the Rio Grande is wasteful. You could be doing something about incenting jobs to be developed or better the health care system, or improving access to higher education so our citizens can compete even better than we already do.
IMO, unfortunately when Washington can't get it right, the pols try to divert our attention with fUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt). Has anyone mentioned the war on drugs lately? NOPE, they failed miserably on that one, so they sneak off and bury it. How about the war on poverty? Anyone hear anything about that lately? Nope, we are the (still , but for how long) strongest, richest nation on earth and we still have people who are starving in the street. Our welfare systems don't incent anyone to get off, they are self-perpetuating programs.
... sorry it's been a week for soap boxing. But I do hate it when the pols call me 'stupid' by trying the ole 'look at this hand' trick.
I'll stop here.

...sorry I lied... in response to your question... I've always tried to give my kids some life skills. When one of them would whine ' ... ahhh that's not fair'... I would ask them who promised them fair. The moral being not everything in life is fair. Deal with it or become frustrated.

...oks now I'll stop.

[dumpster56]

I cannot figure out how the mexican worker got such a bad rap. These guys and ladies work great! Nice people with a strong work etic. I guess the pictures of bands of women children and men running through the desert to come to america by the media has caused this?

I don't know but down here with the housing construction slowing even here in the raleigh NC area they might head back to mexico.

Oh and the American OWNER of the companies that BUILD the houses, HAVE HIRED these guys at breakneck speed because THEY COULD!! They were given the GREEN light by the governments ability to gut vocational education here in america. Go ahead try and find an AMERICAN roofing crew here in north carolina!

[BristolBane]

I think it's immoral for our country to let the current situation persist. It's not right to have a permanent underclass operating in the shadows so that we can have cheap lettuce and manicured lawns. These people need to either be legalized or sent home (or both - sent home before being offered a path to citizenship or worker visa).

[megacorp-firee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BristolBane I think it's immoral for our country to let the current situation persist. It's not right to have a permanent underclass operating in the shadows so that we can have cheap lettuce and manicured lawns. These people need to either be legalized or sent home (or both - sent home before being offered a path to citizenship or worker visa).

This is not a 'current situation'. This has been going on for at least decades, the large infuxes probably starting with natural catastrophes in other countries along with access to transportation to get here. Anecdotally (I am not a historian), the Irish potato famine comes to mind, as does the Chinese railway workers. I believe all newcomers, legal or illegal were part of a 'permanent' underclass. It's just that the origins of the participants keep changing. As they raised their families and became assimilated into American culture (it just takes a generation or two), they are no longer in the 'permanent' underclass. Someone else comes and takes there place. Sorta the America way, if you will.

The only time it comes to the attention is when some thing trips the 'who's the scapegoat' button. It's an election year. Sorry to be so cynical, but ... to me, it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

[Walt34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BristolBane I think it's immoral for our country to let the current situation persist. It's not right to have a permanent underclass operating in the shadows so that we can have cheap lettuce and manicured lawns. These people need to either be legalized or sent home (or both - sent home before being offered a path to citizenship or worker visa).

That is my position. If people want their roofs redone and their lettuce picked, then pay enough to have legal residents do it. But the hypocrisy of it all is offensive.

I'll pick lettuce. For $200/hour. Someone else LEGAL will do it for a lot less.

That's the issue with laws. If they're not enforced they become meaningless. Quit the hypocrisy and either enforce them or change them.

[megacorp-firee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt34 That is my position. If people want their roofs redone and their lettuce picked, then pay enough to have legal residents do it. But the hypocrisy of it all is offensive. I'll pick lettuce. For $200/hour. Someone else LEGAL will do it for a lot less. That's the issue with laws. If they're not enforced they become meaningless. Quit the hypocrisy and either enforce them or change them.

No problem, and I agree.

But how about enforcing ALL of the laws and not just the ones that will get someone a few thousand votes then? Cherry picking this issue is easy, after all the illegals can't vote.
How about working on issues that will move this country forward in a positive manner?
How about fixing the health care issue
How about fixing access to higher and better education for our kids
How about fixing the economy
Where are the priorities here?
Pandering to the voters seems to be where the pols are right now

[Walt34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by megacorp-firee But how about enforcing ALL of the laws and not just the ones that will get someone a few thousand votes then? Cherry picking this issue is easy, after all the illegals can't vote. How about working on issues that will move this country forward in a positive manner? How about fixing the health care issue How about fixing access to higher and better education for our kids How about fixing the economy Where are the priorities here? Pandering to the voters seems to be where the pols are right now

Sigh. You are so right. Is there a difference between politicians and whores?

I can't tell

[Orchidflower]

I agree with megacorp-firee:

When I lived in Houston not many years ago, a Mexican who came over here when he was a child whined to me about how they (the Mexicans) get only the scum jobs. Well, I enlightened him that it is not uncommon when you get loads of any nationality at one time that there is prejudice against the group coming in. Remember the "No Irish needed" signs all over the country at one time years ago?
My grandfather came here from Greece with money and a high i.q.--but nobody would hire him. What did he do? In the fine out tradition of Greeks who sit and play cards all day in the coffee houses there, he became a professional gambler and supported his wife and 5 kids on it. You make it work somehow.
However, my family came in legally because, unfortunately for them, they weren't living on America's easy to cross border and couldn't sneak it.
My position is that I welcome the Mexicans, but pay your "sneaking across the border" FINE (like $5,000 each), get documented and start paying your American taxes if you want the right to live here. I don't think we will be able to stop them from sneaking in, so fine them for doing it. And get a system that catches them quickly, too, after they sneak in. The fines alone should bring some money into the country.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I guess it'd be great if it was a fair and balanced world, where everyone wanted to work hard for a fair wage, business owners could always make a profit even when paying higher wage levels and people were willing to pay the associated higher prices for goods and services.

This is not that world.

By the way, people might want to defer that juicer purchase should we evict all the people willing to pick fruit for next to nothing in 100 degree weather.

Unfortunately, when the farmers stop growing fruits and vegetables that have to be hand picked, they wont be able to sell their properties to developers to build subdivisions, because none of them will have enough guys to build the homes.

A huge percentage of two income families will find that one of them has to stay home and drop out of the workforce since child care, house cleaning and yard/home maintenance costs will rise substantially.

So yeah, it'd be great if we got rid of all these intruders doing all this cheap labor, and nothing bad happened.

[Wags]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zathras With Huckabee's stance on wanting to rewrite the constitution to incorporate "God's standards" and his dispbelief in sound scientific theory (evolution at the very least) I wouldn't trust him to govern a meeting much less the country.

I think that 43 used the same tactics to justify the attack and invasion of Iraq and hence almost 5 years later U.S forces are still fighting in Iraq. If my recollection serves me right the article Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
was in Common Dreams Org.
Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq

Do not blame the illegals for the current state of affairs as it pertains to illegal immigration. The ones at fault is the U.S government for looking the other way and not enforcing the current laws on the books.

GOD BLESS

[BristolBane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by megacorp-firee This is not a 'current situation'. This has been going on for at least decades, the large infuxes probably starting with natural catastrophes in other countries along with access to transportation to get here. Anecdotally (I am not a historian), the Irish potato famine comes to mind, as does the Chinese railway workers. I believe all newcomers, legal or illegal were part of a 'permanent' underclass. It's just that the origins of the participants keep changing. As they raised their families and became assimilated into American culture (it just takes a generation or two), they are no longer in the 'permanent' underclass. Someone else comes and takes there place. Sorta the America way, if you will. The only time it comes to the attention is when some thing trips the 'who's the scapegoat' button. It's an election year. Sorry to be so cynical, but ... to me, it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

Every current situation is 'a current situation' by definition. I didn't say it was a new situation. I said it's immoral to let it continue.

What happened to the Irish or Chinese has no bearing on the morality of this situation. It is wrong for us as a nation to use these people like we are even if they are willing participants. We can't just avert our eyes and hope that in a few generations everything will be ok. In my opinion, the situation needs to be dealt with humanely and not ignored.