This Armenian Bill is well Nuts.

[dumpster56]

washingtonpost.com

Pelosi has got to be out of her mind!

Look I cannot believe that this is even been an issue with US the AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!

we have an issue today with American ideals in the Muslim world. Then you go and continue the idiotic american response to ANYTHING in the muslim world. Why pi$$ off Turkey

I just am so sick of all american politicians!

[Wags]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy888 washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines Pelosi has got to be out of her mind! Look I cannot believe that this is even been an issue with US the AMERICAN PEOPLE!!! we have an issue today with American ideals in the Muslim world. Then you go and continue the idiotic american response to ANYTHING in the muslim world. Why pi$$ off Turkey I just am so sick of all american politicians!

I guess that all the mangy varmints in D.C have lost touch with reality. They have thrown all COMMON SENSE out the window.

Turkey is a close ALLY and it appears that this action will result in the following - the discontinued use of their airspace, the discontinued use of their bases to re-supply our troops, etc..., etc...... But the worse thing is that Turkey is now talking about going into Iraq to fight the Kurds. Up until this point they have remained on the sidelines while the Kurds attack their country. Turkey's armed involvement into Iraq wil only put OUR TROOPS in the DANGER and will further alienate the Muslim world.

Old George W, the Republicans and the Democrats are failing OUR TROOPS and the American people with their failed policies.

GOD BLESS

[Corporateburnout]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy888 washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines Pelosi has got to be out of her mind! Look I cannot believe that this is even been an issue with US the AMERICAN PEOPLE!!! we have an issue today with American ideals in the Muslim world. Then you go and continue the idiotic american response to ANYTHING in the muslim world. Why pi$$ off Turkey I just am so sick of all american politicians!

So do you think it's morally acceptable to deny the killings of over one million Armenian people at the hands of the turks?

[DRiP Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporateburnout So do you think it's morally acceptable to deny the killings of over one million Armenian people at the hands of the turks?

Deny?

WTF.

I am sorry, but I am not denying that there was a Massacre At Wounded Knee, 1890. I am not denying the past embarrassment of state-endorsed slavery, in this country and others. I am not denying the Nazi Holocaust.
Or the "Black War" of attempted genocide in Tasmania, or Myall Creek in the 1880s. We had Greeks killing Turks in the Peloponnese, Missolonghi, Vrachori, Navarino, and Tripoli massacres. Why are the Dems not up in arms against the current Greek leadership?

World freakin' history is rife with such horrors, and I condemn and repudiate them ALL, in their totality.

However.

This recent ill-timed, nakedly political, disgustingly maudlin attempt to undermine a domestic political opponent with a dusty, dead, foreign, red-herring is ridiculous on it's face. With no disrespect to ANYONE who suffered ANY injustice or indignity on centuries past, could anyone really believe that Pelosi or other sponsor of this theater is doing it for OTHER than US presidential electioneering and routine partisan undercutting? Pelosi (and other US politicos pushing this charade) could give a flyin' f* about what happened to Armenians going on a century ago; she is pandering for votes and political gain, plain and simple.

It makes me want to puke.



AFP: Politics drive US Armenia resolution

The American Spectator

[OAG]

Pure nutty behavior. Now we P**s off the Turkish Government and lose our bases in Turkey -- oh da** do yah think that was the "real" objective all along. Maybe, we even get another group to fight against out AMERICAN troops. If she has the best interests of the AMERICAN PEOPLE and the AMERICAN TROOPS at heart or in her mind she needs some kind of transplant.

[dex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRiP Guy Deny? World freakin' history is rife with such horrors, and I condemn and repudiate them ALL, in their totality. However. This recent ill-timed, nakedly political, disgustingly maudlin attempt to undermine a domestic political opponent with a dusty, dead, foreign, red-herring is ridiculous on it's face. With no disrespect to ANYONE who suffered ANY injustice or indignity on centuries past, could anyone really believe that Pelosi or other sponsor of this theater is doing it for OTHER than US presidential electioneering and routine partisan undercutting? Pelosi (and other US politicos pushing this charade) could give a flyin' f* about what happened to Armenians going on a century ago; she is pandering for votes and political gain, plain and simple. AFP: Politics drive US Armenia resolution The American Spectator

I have to agree with this. The only reason for this resolution is to hinder the Turkey assistance with the Iraq war. It really is one of the dumbest things that the congress could do. It is almost as if they are working against the soliders fighting in Iraq. Turkey wants to be part of the EU and this alienates the country and gives ammunition to the Islamic extreamists in that country.

I can not think of any reasonable reason why this resolution needed to be made at this time.

[chinaco]

Pelosi will suffer the fate of all politicians. She will wind up disgraced and eaten by her own party.

I am not impressed with her. For that matter, I have not been impressed with the speakers (of the house) for quite a while.

[Letj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporateburnout So do you think it's morally acceptable to deny the killings of over one million Armenian people at the hands of the turks?

How about denying the illegal invasion of Iraq and the resulting death, displacement and injury of millions of Iraqis? You cool with that?

[FinallyRetired]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wags But the worse thing is that Turkey is now talking about going into Iraq to fight the Kurds. Up until this point they have remained on the sidelines while the Kurds attack their country.

Having been stationed in the Kurdistan province of Turkey, I can tell you that a Turkish-Kurdish battle would be pretty one sided, leading to the massacre of many more Kurds than have already been killed by wars involving their occupiers.

The problem is that the Kurds are a people and a culture separate from the countries in which they find themselves, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Azerbaijan. Even though they form a separate cultural group, they never managed to have their own country, and their lands were carved according to lines drawn after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. In this way they are a bit like American Indians. Whenever they've tried to rise up and declare their independence they've been squashed almost as badly as the Armenians. So, to say that the Kurds attacked Turkey is a bit like saying that Sitting Bull attacked the United States at Little Bighorn.

But, more to the point, that Armenian bill is a bad idea for everyone involved. It would do nothing for those of Armenian background still living in Turkey, it would spill over into further repression of Kurds, and would damage US Turkish relations. Seems like a pretty naive political action.

[DRiP Guy]

Thanks SoonToRetire, that is my own understanding of the Kurdish situation, as well.

Can anyone recommend a good book that covers the history of the Kurds, how they ended up where they are, what it is about their culture and ideas that makes them so repugnant to the local competing cultures, and how they keep it together?

I have never met a Kurd and know nothing about them, but I always did identify with the underdog, including our own indigenous American Indian (i.e. native peoples), although, again, think any group who lives solely in the past is not long for the world.

As an aside, I am terribly ashamed to have to say I found it richly humorous and ironic when the possible discovery of pre-Indian Caucasoids in America caused native tribes to protest loudly and long, to shut down and decry the related research and the digs.

See Kennewick Man on the 'net:
Kennewick Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NOVA | Transcripts | Mystery of the First Americans | PBS

Kennewick Man


Cherished myths sure do die hard. As for me give me the truth even if inconvenient, politically uncomfortable, or painful.

[FinallyRetired]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRiP Guy Can anyone recommend a good book that covers the history of the Kurds, how they ended up where they are, what it is about their culture and ideas that makes them so repugnant to the local competing cultures, and how they keep it together?

Here is a good site:
The Encyclopaedia of Kurdistan, KURDISTANICA

And here's a book
Amazon.com: A Modern History of the Kurds: Books: David McDowall

I have many memories of the year I spent with the Kurds in Turkey. They are a distinct peoples, after being there a while I could spot a Turkish person walking down the street from a Kurd by their slightly different physical appearance and just the way they carried themselves.

I remember a Kurdish friend I made, he was pretty young (early 30s?) and ran a chai (tea) shop with tables on the sidewalk. It was quite an experience to sit sipping Kurdish tea on the sidewalk of a city that no one knows how old it is, but at least 3,000 years. We could see an ancient mound from where we sat that is not yet excavated, but is thought to contain Sumerian relics.

Anyway, after going to his shop long enough for him to trust me, one day he took me to a separate room inside the store and began telling me about his people (he spoke pretty good English). When I expressed an interest in Kurdish history, he asked me wait a bit while he went to gather some things. He came back in a colorful Fez hat, carrying a special kind of meersham water pipe, and put on some Kurdish music. He then began to show me some of the Kurdish customs that were banned in Turkey, and told me that if a Turkish soldier came in he would be arrested (that part of Kurdistan was under martial law at the time).

I looked at him incredulously, with my typical American dismay at infringement of civil liberties, and he told me that they are not permitted to speak Kurdish, nor are they allowed to write in their native arabic alphabet, sing Kurdish hymns, wear the fez, or listen to certain music. I was shocked, and asked him if he had an extra fez, which he did. I put it on, shared the pipe with him, and did my best to imitate the Kurdish songs I was hearing. I felt like a dime store revolutionary, and I suppose I would have been arrested along with him if the cops had come in. So we finished our little revolutionary triste, gave each other a hug, and I went back out into the politically correct society. I returned to his shop many times after that, and gave him a knowing wink whenever he served me tea. Keep in mind this was many years ago (at least 30), and hopefully things have changed for the better now.

Another thing I remember is the beauty of the young Kurdish children, they look like those drawings you see of children with the big eyes and wistful expressions. We used to sponsor an orphenage, and I fell in love with a young three year old that I wanted to adopt and bring home to raise along with our kids, but alas I was not allowed to adopt. Many of the Kurds in Turkish Kurdistan, particularly the kids have red hair, a heritage to their origins in ancient Persia and Mesopotamia, along with their countless battles against the Greeks and Romans.

Thanks for that link about Kennewick man, interesting.

Edit: I just remembered that I scanned some of my 30+ year old 35mm slides, so here are a couple. The first is of a poor Kurdish village on the banks of the Tigris river. This was the middle of summer, so the river was pretty dry. The second is of one of the major cities in Kurdistan. Note the city walls, the older sections of which are thousands of years old. Also note the smoke from all the wood fires used for warmth and cooking (cough cough).

[DRiP Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonToRetire Thanks for that link about Kennewick man, interesting.

And thank you for the tale and the links! I will purchase the book.

I edited my post and added some more mainstream links, because as I read through the initial site myself, there are some tones that begin to appear pretty unhealthy, although I think most of the non-opinion material is well-sourced and reliable.

I got my initial introduction to the Kennewick Man story through the PBS program, with transcript now linked, above.

Cheers!

[HFWR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinaco Pelosi will suffer the fate of all politicians. She will wind up disgraced and eaten by her own party.

Maybe we can catch her with a wide stance...

[genghis]

So let me get his straight - if we admonish our so called great ally Turkey by defining their massacre of 1.5 Million Armenians as a holocaust - the result is that they will then wipe out the Kurds.

Hmmmm - interesting ally we have there.....

[dumpster56]

Quote:

Originally Posted by genghis So let me get his straight - if we admonish our so called great ally Turkey by defining their massacre of 1.5 Million Armenians as a holocaust - the result is that they will then wipe out the Kurds. Hmmmm - interesting ally we have there.....

It IS absoluty crazy. I will get slammed here BUT if say Russia decided what we did to the american Indians was genocide what might we do? I believe Pelosi is grandstanding here. Sure she might have a large number of armenian constiuents in her part of california, But come on the Muslim world is so crazed these days and this in my humble opinion is the wrong fight at the wrong time. Speaker of the house with well no brains. How in the world do we americans continue to elect such awful people?

[FinallyRetired]

Quote:

Originally Posted by genghis So let me get his straight - if we admonish our so called great ally Turkey by defining their massacre of 1.5 Million Armenians as a holocaust - the result is that they will then wipe out the Kurds. Hmmmm - interesting ally we have there.....

Turkey may not be an ally in the sense of Britain but it's the very best we could hope for in a nation that has roots in the Middle East. Let's not mess with Turkey, if their Republic should fall to a fundamentalist govt, today's problems with Iran would appear minor in comparison.

[HFWR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy888 It IS absoluty crazy. I will get slammed here BUT if say Russia decided what we did to the american Indians was genocide what might we do?

Well, I knew they'd bought a lot of motels, but jeez...

[dex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy888 It IS absoluty crazy. I will get slammed here BUT if say Russia decided what we did to the american Indians was genocide what might we do?

The Russians are too smart for that. They know that the vast majority of all Indians (north and south America) were killed by European diseases brought here first by the Spanish (looking for gold) and then the French trading for beaver pelts. It is called "The Great Dying" - not to be confused with "The Great Killing" which refers to large pre historic animals by human hunters spreading across the globe.

The affect of killing all those beavers is really interesting. The indians in the Southwest USA kill off all of the beavers there which affects the ecology there to this day. The beavers damed the rivers and made ponds that supported a diverse wild life.

[perinova]

I am going to discord quite a bit with previous opinions here.

No-one mentioned that there is a law in Turkey (in their penal code I believe?) that makes it illegal to admit the Armenian genocide. The successive Turkish regimes have a revisionist attitude toward it and are heavily providing desinformation on the subject.

That is IMHO a good reason for this proposed resoution: Helping scholars tell the truth about this and make pressure on Turkey not to jail people just because they have an opinion!
If they want to remain an ally of the US they will. I am thinking that they need this alliance as much as the US if not more.
{Guys remember we don't always get involved where there is oil or out of self interest. Sometimes it feels good to do something just because it is the right thing to do."}

Anyway the dems in Congress are trying to find as many ways as possible to end this war as early as possible and this could be just another piece of it and might be the real reason for the resolution.

Here is a link indicating that the problem with section 306 of Turkish pernal code dates at least from 2004 Congressman Frank Pallone, Jr. (NJ06) - Pallone Urges State Department to Condemn New Turkish Code

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by perinova Anyway the dems in Congress are trying to find as many ways as possible to end this war as early as possible sabotoage the present US efforts in Iraq and this could be is just another piece of it and might be the real reason for the resolution.