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Re: This is truly scary.
Old 04-30-2007, 06:48 AM   #181
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Re: This is truly scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LKH
And if companies, to avoid paying Americans a living wage, want to farm jobs overseas - fine - so long as they pay THOSE workers a living wage for where they live. And additionally, I think they need to pay a tax. After all, by removing jobs from American soil, they are depriving the government of the taxes those workers would pay - and if more people end up on the dole because fewer jobs are available in the US, then those companies are also contributing to a drain on the resources of the government.

WRT the term socialism... I guess my concern is that when you label anything that limits unfettered greed with a politically loaded term, the knee-jerk reactions tend to shut down reasoned discussion. If free market economy means that companies should be allowed to unilaterally set wages so low that people who work full time would actually live better on welfare, then I think some regulation is needed to offset the consequences of unfettered greed. If that's socialism, so be it. While I think capitalism, by and large, works better than the alternatives, maybe pure capitalism, with nothing to rein in abuses by the folks who hold the purse strings, isn't the best solution either.
If everything remained equal the company does pay the taxes, in fact more taxes. Assuming the move made the company more efficient and did not change sales their profit would go up. Just a wild estimation the company cuts 1000 $30,000/per year jobs here and spends $11,000 per job per year at the new place. The would increase the company's income by a large number, so they would be taxed on the increase in profit at a higher rate than the individual.

Wage setting is only unilateral if the government mandates a wage. If the wage is too low people leave to find better pay or benefits. That is how free markets work.
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Re: This is truly scary.
Old 04-30-2007, 07:55 AM   #182
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Re: This is truly scary.

In theory, that might be true. And in that case, maybe someone ought to make a point of letting the public know who's putting Americans out of work and farming jobs overseas to avoid paying a living wage. Then the purchasing power of American citizens can also play its part in the free market economy.

For many millions of jobs, "the market" has set wages too low for people to live on. The people in those jobs often don't have options - their job history or skillsets keep them in those crummy, low-paying jobs. They might be trying to turn their lives around, but they're not getting much of a chance. I'm all for the government stepping in, if companies won't do the right thing on their own.
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Re: This is truly scary.
Old 04-30-2007, 08:45 AM   #183
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Re: This is truly scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LKH
In theory, that might be true. And in that case, maybe someone ought to make a point of letting the public know who's putting Americans out of work and farming jobs overseas to avoid paying a living wage. Then the purchasing power of American citizens can also play its part in the free market economy.

For many millions of jobs, "the market" has set wages too low for people to live on. The people in those jobs often don't have options - their job history or skillsets keep them in those crummy, low-paying jobs. They might be trying to turn their lives around, but they're not getting much of a chance. I'm all for the government stepping in, if companies won't do the right thing on their own.
Since we're arguing a circle this is my last post. The companies are paying a living wage, in the countries they move jobs to. The simple point is, since our wages have risen so far above the majority of the rest of the world we have no choice. To remain competitive the companies must move jobs to other countries. I'm sure you'll agree that a company cutting several thousand American jobs and remaining in business, is far better than keeping all of the jobs here and going out of business or having such a difficult time competing as to suffer a slow death.

The reason wages are so low is limited, for most people in the workforce. The job requires little or no skill. In this case the job pool is literally limitless. The job requires skill, but there is an overabundance of people who are willing and able to do the work at the going pay. The pay is set by a government organization and a free market competitor is not readily available. This is the situation with teachers, police, fire, and many other government jobs.

The first situation is the one most people complain about because it is the most easily observed. These people are also the ones pulled out in arguments for increasing the minimum wage. These are also the ones that I believe have the least reason to complain. They are either just entering the work force or have done little to improve their value to any employer.

The second situation is essentially the luck of the draw. Someone learns skills in a currently hot job market, but so does everyone else and the market becomes saturated with qualified people.

The third as I stated in earlier posts I believe also have no reason to complain. They chose the career and these jobs are known for having low pay, yet the person decided to train for the job anyway. Yes they could and probably should be paid better, but the pay was low when they decided to try to obtain the position and it will probably be low until they retire.
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Re: This is truly scary.
Old 04-30-2007, 09:45 AM   #184
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Re: This is truly scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
Since we're arguing a circle this is my last post. The companies are paying a living wage, in the countries they move jobs to. The simple point is, since our wages have risen so far above the majority of the rest of the world we have no choice. To remain competitive the companies must move jobs to other countries. I'm sure you'll agree that a company cutting several thousand American jobs and remaining in business, is far better than keeping all of the jobs here and going out of business or having such a difficult time competing as to suffer a slow death.

The reason wages are so low is limited, for most people in the workforce. The job requires little or no skill. In this case the job pool is literally limitless. The job requires skill, but there is an overabundance of people who are willing and able to do the work at the going pay. The pay is set by a government organization and a free market competitor is not readily available. This is the situation with teachers, police, fire, and many other government jobs.

The first situation is the one most people complain about because it is the most easily observed. These people are also the ones pulled out in arguments for increasing the minimum wage. These are also the ones that I believe have the least reason to complain. They are either just entering the work force or have done little to improve their value to any employer.

The second situation is essentially the luck of the draw. Someone learns skills in a currently hot job market, but so does everyone else and the market becomes saturated with qualified people.

The third as I stated in earlier posts I believe also have no reason to complain. They chose the career and these jobs are known for having low pay, yet the person decided to train for the job anyway. Yes they could and probably should be paid better, but the pay was low when they decided to try to obtain the position and it will probably be low until they retire.
Good points. The US is going through a painful but necessary "reallocation" of manufacturing jobs. This isn't the 60's, where Dad and Uncle Bob worked at the West Bend company making pots and pans, and retired after 30 years with a nice pension.

Globalization has forced the wage issue, so American companies are moving manufacturing to lower wage areas of the globe. In those countries, it is a godsend. I remember that GM opened a car plant in Mexico, and "only" had to pay $14 an hour in wage and benefits, while the average UAW worker gets $45 a hour. However, since the average Mexican worker gets only about $2.00 a hour, these jobs were definitely nice to get.

Right now, the US is making a killing in highly machined large scale manufacturing. There's a company in my area that makes gears for large turbines. The kicker is that although there are places in Turkey and China that do this work, the big puyers of the technology don't trust the tolerances and qulaity of their work. So this company continues to have record year after record year.............there is hope for American business, and that's in custom jobbing........
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Re: This is truly scary.
Old 04-30-2007, 11:12 AM   #185
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Re: This is truly scary.

LKH....

Who said that the person should only work 40 hours for a 'living wage' And just out of curiosity.. what amount in dollars for a full year is this magical number??


Also, as someone pointed out, the wages that are being paid in the other countries are very HIGH compared to other choices they have... I saw a Frontline program on the India call centers... there were doctors and lawyers that were taking the jobs because they paid MORE than they could get doing their profession... the work conditions are also MUCH BETTER than for local businesses... they pay for transportation to and from work... they pay for all your meals at work... and also the high wage.. to them, it is the best job available in their country...
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Re: This is truly scary.
Old 04-30-2007, 10:06 PM   #186
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Re: This is truly scary.

Magic number? I think HUD comes up with figures that, depending on the number in the household, allows for basic necessities. Of course the numbers change annually, depending on inflation, the economy, cost of healthcare, etc.

In most cases, yes, the wages offered by American companies are better than what folks might get otherwise. But we do hear about sweat shops run by US companies. So I think it's reasonable to require that they pay reasonably overseas.

Ultimately, the fact is, while some businesses will do the right thing without anyone telling them to, there are an awful lot that won't, and have to be told. All I know is that there is no excuse for what is supposedly the wealthiest country in the nation to have a whole class of people that we somehow feel it's OK to treat like slaves.

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