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Old 08-12-2007, 06:23 AM   #21
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In Ford's defense, I've owned six. Total number of years ownership, 22. Three of the cars were very used when they were purchased. The three very used ones had well over 250,000 miles on them. All six ran without any problems, at all. Out of all six of them I've had to replace one bushing and had one recall. The longest I've owed an individual Ford has been six years and only sold most because life made them no longer practical. I had to sell a Ranger when my son arrived. I sold my F-150 when I received a company car and there was no room to store it, and I really didn't have a need for the large truck any longer. I still own my Explorer and it isn't expected to be replaced before 2011. Two of the very used ones were sold when I moved across country and didn't have enough drivers to drive them, our second car, and the moving van.

I wouldn't drive another GM, if you gave it to me. I've owned five with a total number of years of ownership being 12 years. Everyone I've owned has had to be fixed almost monthly. The brand new one was taken in quarterly to repair a list of warranty related items. The longest I've owned any GM has been three years, only because I grew tired of fixing them.

Don't get me wrong, I think Toyotas and Hondas are good cars, but I've had no problems with the Fords I've owned, so I don't see a reason to change brands.

Many of these cars were purchased, before it first hit me that if I lived below my means I might be able to retire early.
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Old 08-12-2007, 07:56 AM   #22
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OK... let's go to the other side of FORD...

Cars and trucks breaking into flames because they did NOT fix the cruise control unit... and it was recalled a couple of years ago...

I had an 85 Cougar that was a POC... the company KNEW why it would STALL while driving... but did not tell anybody until they were sued since they did not want to do a recall... I spent money on trying to 'fix' it, but all the money was flushed down the toilet since it was not the problem....

I also work where we had a mini fleet of cars... they bought Taurus... almost ALL of them had to have a transmission replace before 100K... it was a joke when they decided to get rid of the fleet and offered them to the employees... everybody was asking had the transmission been replaced yet??
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Old 08-12-2007, 08:26 AM   #23
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OK... let's go to the other side of FORD...

Cars and trucks breaking into flames because they did NOT fix the cruise control unit... and it was recalled a couple of years ago...

I had an 85 Cougar that was a POC... the company KNEW why it would STALL while driving... but did not tell anybody until they were sued since they did not want to do a recall... I spent money on trying to 'fix' it, but all the money was flushed down the toilet since it was not the problem....

I also work where we had a mini fleet of cars... they bought Taurus... almost ALL of them had to have a transmission replace before 100K... it was a joke when they decided to get rid of the fleet and offered them to the employees... everybody was asking had the transmission been replaced yet??
If you want to go tit-for-tat you can point out errors and problems about most of the car manufacturers. Toyotas, Hondas, and Datsuns were crap when they first got here, but they were economical and cheap so people bought them and they improved. There are also issues with many of their current models. When the American manufacturers realized they were in trouble (a little late if you ask me) they started working to improve their quality. I don't think any of the manufacturers make a perfect product, but none make nothing but lemons.
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:58 AM   #24
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I think it must be some type of reporting bias. How could Buicks be significantly better than their Chevy stablemates? They are designed by the same folks, share the same chassis and major components. Their parts come from the same companies. Only the nameplates, upholstery, and awful stick-on gee-gawks are different between brands.
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Old 08-12-2007, 12:38 PM   #25
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Old 08-12-2007, 12:48 PM   #26
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I don't think any of the manufacturers make a perfect product, but none make nothing but lemons.
Very true. We proably all know someone who has had trouble with every manufacturer. Example: Toyota didn't exactly publicize its sludge problems with most of its V6's (including Lexus) several years ago. But they did replace engines for free to avoid publicity.

Most of us can only go by our personal experience or that of close friends and relatives, tempered by JD Power data, etc. I am one of those who can say I would never own another Ford because of my 3 experiences with them, but the person upthread obviously had better luck. But I quite frankly got tired of all domestics nickeling and diming me....so I gave up on domestics entirely.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:39 PM   #27
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Very true. We probably all know someone who has had trouble with every manufacturer. Example: Toyota didn't exactly publicize its sludge problems with most of its V6's (including Lexus) several years ago. But they did replace engines for free to avoid publicity.

Most of us can only go by our personal experience or that of close friends and relatives, tempered by JD Power data, etc. I am one of those who can say I would never own another Ford because of my 3 experiences with them, but the person upthread obviously had better luck. But I quite frankly got tired of all domestics nickeling and diming me....so I gave up on domestics entirely.

There can be a lot of justifiable criticism of the domestic auto makers, but they raised the standard of living for an entire generation, especially in the Midwest. I know that the Japanese cars have better long term durability, but I am grateful for what the US automakers did for me and Michigan, in particular. My opinion, based on my experience.
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Old 08-12-2007, 05:39 PM   #28
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If you want to go tit-for-tat you can point out errors and problems about most of the car manufacturers. Toyotas, Hondas, and Datsuns were crap when they first got here, but they were economical and cheap so people bought them and they improved. There are also issues with many of their current models. When the American manufacturers realized they were in trouble (a little late if you ask me) they started working to improve their quality. I don't think any of the manufacturers make a perfect product, but none make nothing but lemons.

Not going tit for tat... just putting down my experience with the cars.. and it is not good..

And I also go by how a company treats me... and with Ford it is not good..

And I also go by the Consumers Reports... and again, Ford is not good..

Now, I do know a number of people who have bought Ford because they discounted their car to a price point where people would put up with the problems... and they are happy with their car...

I think GM did a much better job in improving their cars.. then Ford and then Chrysler... but it would take a lot for me to by one of the last two... I just don't think it would happen...

BTW, of course all companies make 'good' cars... when you look at the stats, a bad company only makes maybe 5 to 10% that are 'bad', where a good company is in the 1 to 2% bad...
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:22 AM   #29
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Did anybody else see that all of the Buick models rated so highly in this study have been discontinued?
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:37 AM   #30
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Very true. We proably all know someone who has had trouble with every manufacturer. Example: Toyota didn't exactly publicize its sludge problems with most of its V6's (including Lexus) several years ago. But they did replace engines for free to avoid publicity.
The key here is HOW they handle problems. The Big Three could learn a lot from Honda and Toyota. NO WAY GM replaces a tranny they know is defective. I bought a new 96 Pontiac Grand Prix. I did regular maintenance, and at 32,000 miles (3 months OUT of warranty,how convenient), the tranny blew. I complained and complained, and finally got half of it covered. Later, I found out there was a TSB about the trannies that had 2nd gear start on them, and that the dealer and zone could fix them and GM would reimburse. However, the service manager refused to do this, and I had to ante up $1200. Tell me why a transmission shouldn't last longer than 32,000 miles

Conversely, I bought a USED Honda Accord about a year and a half ago. After a couple months, the digital display on the radio faded out and I couldn't see it. I took it to the Honda dealer, where they told me it was a problem with the 2003's, but since I was out of warranty they would have to call the factory. The repair estimate was $800.

I got a call about an hour later. Honda agreed to pay for the unit if I paid installation, ($95 + tax).............DONE!!

I laugh when I think about what Ford, GM, or Chrysler would have done.........
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:37 AM   #31
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Did anybody else see that all of the Buick models rated so highly in this study have been discontinued?
So the Rendevous, LeSabre, and Park Avenues have AWESOME reliability?
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:05 PM   #32
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It is interesting to hear the stories of various people on how they are treated...

My friend has a new Pontiac. After about 500 miles or so, the engine had this 'clanking' noise when it was first started... took it in and they could not figure out what it was, so they replaced his engine.. sent it to the main office to be broken down and looked at...

Well, now he is approaching 18K miles and the new engine is starting to do the same thing... this is their 3.8 that is supposed to be the good one..
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Old 08-15-2007, 11:54 AM   #33
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It is interesting to hear the stories of various people on how they are treated...

My friend has a new Pontiac. After about 500 miles or so, the engine had this 'clanking' noise when it was first started... took it in and they could not figure out what it was, so they replaced his engine.. sent it to the main office to be broken down and looked at...

Well, now he is approaching 18K miles and the new engine is starting to do the same thing... this is their 3.8 that is supposed to be the good one..

Shhhhhhhhhhhh! Not so loud. My 3.8 has 165k, and I don't need no stinking clanking noise coming from the engine. I want 200k out of it before I say it doesn't owe me anything.
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:52 AM   #34
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Shhhhhhhhhhhh! Not so loud. My 3.8 has 165k, and I don't need no stinking clanking noise coming from the engine. I want 200k out of it before I say it doesn't owe me anything.
It should make it. The only problems I have heard about the 3800 all relate to the plastic upper intake manifold that was used on the Series II 3800. Just about every manufacturer that went to a plastic upper manifold that has coolant passages in it, or a lower plastic manifold that has coolant passages in plastic has regretted it. There are quite a few that did. The engineering plastics community sold them a bill of goods! There were problems in time with many of the first generation plastic manifolds.

Specifically in the Series II 3800, a problem with long-term sealing between the throttle body and the upper intake. There was a recall on that. If it looses seal in the wrong area there, coolant can get slurped into the intake (coolant is looped through the throttle body to avoid TB icing in cold damp conditions). The other problem with the upper intake is that some cars, in some service, can have an erosion of plastic around the EGR passageway that comes up into the bottom of the upper intake from the aluminum lower intake. If this effect erodes enough plastic, then it can eat into a coolant passageway (the one that is headed over and up to the TB). This can also result in ingestion of coolant. We pulled the upper intake off of our Series II and replaced it ourself. No big deal for us. The improve replacement is made by Dorman, who makes the improved replacements for just about every other plastic intake that has had trouble. Just for reference, our 100k mile example of hot Texas miles showed absolutely NO erosion. Oh well, we don't have to worry about it...

The Series III 3800 went back to aluminum for the upper intake.
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:02 PM   #35
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I hear ya on the intake... we've replaced two of them. I keep a vigilant eye on the coolant level. Spun bearings are VERY BAD!

And you are more man than I am. Wrenching on that intake looked way over my shade-tree-wrenchin' head.

For the next hoopty, I'll have to keep an eye out for the series III engine, in one them hightly-rated Bew-hicks...
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:05 PM   #36
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Did anybody else see that all of the Buick models rated so highly in this study have been discontinued?
Yes. But many still exist, just with a different name and some changes. The LaCrosse is still a "W" chassis like the Regal, just stretched the wheelbase a bit. And the first two trim lines still use the 3800 engine. And same transmission, etc. etc.

The Lucerne is a modification of the stretched "W" body Le Sabre. The base engine is still the 3800. There is a higher trim line with the Northstar 4.6L V8 shoe-horned in. I could drive a Lucerne ok, it would be decent. The Regal/LaCrosse are decent cars too, just a bit too low-slung for my tall tastes.
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:14 PM   #37
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I hear ya on the intake... we've replaced two of them. I keep a vigilant eye on the coolant level. Spun bearings are VERY BAD!

And you are more man than I am. Wrenching on that intake looked way over my shade-tree-wrenchin' head.

For the next hoopty, I'll have to keep an eye out for the series III engine, in one them hightly-rated Bew-hicks...
It actually wasn't too bad. Just wish we didn't have to work on it in the August Texas sun!!! But it was the only time the car and I were in the same place at the same time here to do it. I threw in the towel about mid-afternoon, as I was about to collapse over the engine due to the heat. I got going early the next morning and finished it up.

There was one thing I saw that I didn't like. Behind the upper intake are the fuel line to fuel rail connections. The fuel supply line has a retaining clip (good). But the return line is just the fuel line forced onto a barbed fitting. I didn't like that. If there was any sort of restriction in the return line to the tank, the pressure in that hose would increase, possibly popping the return line off of the barbs. I put a real small, call it tiny, hose clamp over it for my peace of mind.
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Old 08-17-2007, 09:56 AM   #38
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Ok...I had an 89 LeSabre that I sold to a friend of mine's son and it's still running.........

The only thing I had to replace was the plenum, which as I understand is the place where the fuel runs before the injectors grab it and throw it into the cylinders.

Cost about $400 back in 97. Car ran like a dream, and I got 30 on the highway. However, the chrome trunk rack and wire wheels made me feel about 70 years old.......
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Old 08-17-2007, 02:59 PM   #39
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Ok...I had an 89 LeSabre that I sold to a friend of mine's son and it's still running.........

The only thing I had to replace was the plenum, which as I understand is the place where the fuel runs before the injectors grab it and throw it into the cylinders.

Cost about $400 back in 97. Car ran like a dream, and I got 30 on the highway. However, the chrome trunk rack and wire wheels made me feel about 70 years old.......
Is that when you went out and got a Honda?
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