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Old 10-23-2008, 12:56 PM   #21
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Oh this could go on a long time...

Any regrets after retiring? ( wish you would have held on for a few more years?)

And there is that wait in the tire shop as they work on your car:

Whatta 'ya gonna do when you retire? ( You'll be bored, I'm warning 'ya!)

and the follow-up threads:

Two years after I retired: An update - ( Hey, I retired two years ago, and my tread is already down 40%!!!! I'm thinking of selling, should have bought quality stuff!)

-ERD50
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Old 10-23-2008, 06:43 PM   #22
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Thanks guys, and thanks, Honey. The tires are ordered and on their way.

My only regret is that I didn't think to name this thread:
Time to Retire
Hope you dont get snow where you live as those low resistance tires arent going to be suitable for winter driving.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:58 PM   #23
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UPDATE: These tires give me significantly worse gas mileage than the Toyo Ultras did! The average of the last five tankfuls with the old tires: 40.84 MPG. The average of the first five tankfuls with the new tires: 36.98 MPG.

We drive 15,000 miles per year, and use 38 more gallons per year, or, at $3/gallon, $114.

I guess it's not worth taking the tires back.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:01 PM   #24
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Al, do you think the alignment or something got changed when the new tires were installed? I think it still might be worth taking the tires back if you expected to get a little better mileage with them--you'll have them for a long time otherwise.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:05 PM   #25
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...[annual extra cost] $114.

I guess it's not worth taking the tires back.
Al, you'd better be careful. Keep this up and you'll lose your seat on the Board of Directors of The National Tightwads Association.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:26 PM   #26
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UPDATE: These tires give me significantly worse gas mileage than the Toyo Ultras did! The average of the last five tankfuls with the old tires: 40.84 MPG. The average of the first five tankfuls with the new tires: 36.98 MPG.

We drive 15,000 miles per year, and use 38 more gallons per year, or, at $3/gallon, $114.

I guess it's not worth taking the tires back.
Hmm...pretty tough to compare rolling resistance head to head. New tires would generally have higher RR without regard to design. Personally, driving on new tires always makes me want to drive harder because the handling is sooo much better, so my lead foot would negate any design improvement as well.

I DO think you should return the tires and demand a full refund...it would be very entertaining for some of us to hear more of this endeavour and you never know it just might work!
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:26 PM   #27
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I like my new Toyos.

I am surprised that the nitrogen thing just refuses to die / go away.
I guess most people don't know that air is mostly nitrogen?

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Old 01-02-2009, 04:32 PM   #28
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If you wanted the optimal in efficiency You'd want to get your low rolling resistance tires and then have the driving tires siped for better initial friction wasting less energy on acceleration.
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:20 PM   #29
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If the tires only last 50k miles but their traction keeps DW out of a wreck I'm a happy camper.
This is how I look at it too. Until I moved to the city where I drive very little, I ran high quality soft rubber Blizzaks in winter, and good pure performance tires in summer. They don't last as long, but they stop in rain, and corner. Tires are the only part of a car that contact the road. Now I have only a little storage space, so I am going with Bridgestone All-Season year 'round. They are OK, but the difference is apparent.

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Old 01-02-2009, 05:28 PM   #30
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...Tires are the only part of a car that contact the road...
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In a perfect world.
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:30 PM   #31
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The average of the last five tankfuls with the old tires: 40.84 MPG. The average of the first five tankfuls with the new tires: 36.98 MPG.
It is hard for me to believe that (properly installed/inflated) tires could be responsible for ~ 4MPG, OR OVER 10% MPG delta. Just not adding up for me.

Something else is at play here. Q: do the tires have the same rolling circumference as the old? If it is different, a 'mile' might not be registering as a 'mile' anymore. I don't even think that would account for it, but add in driving variables, different seasonal fuel mixtures, etc....

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Old 01-02-2009, 05:35 PM   #32
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New tires always give lower gas mileage: the thicker treads squirm more, dissipating energy as heat. Best mileage is from nearly worn out tires, in spite of somewhat smaller diameter. Add in higher density air in winter, your mileage will be a lot lower.
As usual YMMV
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:46 PM   #33
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In a perfect world.
LOL! Don't I know that.

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Old 01-02-2009, 05:54 PM   #34
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New tires always give lower gas mileage
That's encouraging, maybe that's it.

Quote:
It is hard for me to believe that (properly installed/inflated) tires could be responsible for ~ 4MPG, OR OVER 10% MPG delta. Just not adding up for me.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I waited five tankfuls to make sure it wasn't just differences in pumps, etc. I checked that the tires are inflated to their max (44 psi).

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Q: do the tires have the same rolling circumference as the old?
As far as I know.
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:38 PM   #35
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Talking about gas mileage, I observed the following.

1) Repeatedly driving a round trip from an elevation of 1200 ft to 7000ft, then back, at speeds of 55 to 65MPH, I consistently get 24MPG.

2) Driving on flat land at 1200 ft at the same speed range, I consistently get 22.5 MPG.

Now, considering that going down hill won't get back all the energy expended in going up hill, the above results were counterintuitive to me.

The only explanation I could come up with was that the engine efficiency does not vary much with air density, but the aerodrag is significantly lower at the higher elevation.

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Old 01-02-2009, 06:50 PM   #36
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Talking about gas mileage, I observed the following.

1) Repeatedly driving a round trip from an elevation of 1200 ft to 7000ft, then back, at speeds of 55 to 65MPH, I consistently get 24MPG.

2) Driving on flat land at 1200 ft at the same speed range, I consistently get 22.5 MPG.

Now, considering that going down hill won't get back all the energy expended in going up hill, the above results were counterintuitive to me.

The only explanation I could come up with was that the engine efficiency does not vary much with air density, but the aerodrag is significantly lower at the higher elevation.

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Can't explain the differences in mileage, however the lower the altitude, the higher the density of air. Modern engines have altitude (air density) correction programmed, constantly adjusting air/fuel ratio to maintain 14.7 A/F ratio, except under full throttle, when they generally switch to 11 A/F ratio for power. (more fuel)
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:07 PM   #37
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... however the lower the altitude, the higher the density of air...
Yes. And aerodrag is proportional to air density.

By the way, about aerodrag being THE most significant factor, everything else being equal, meaning engine size and car weight, I also observed the following.

Coasting down a 6% hill, my minivan speed will creep up to 80MPH+, where I have to apply braking. No telling how higher it would go.

Coasting down the same hill, my SUV did not get much more than 70MPH. No wonder it is a gas guzzler!

In any event, the mileage that T-Al got is impressive. I would be happy to get 37MPG.
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:33 PM   #38
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Wait a minute - isn't gas like 52 cents a gallon or something now? Cheaper than water! Who cares about MPG!


-ERD50
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:03 PM   #39
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That's encouraging, maybe that's it.



Yeah, I know what you mean. I waited five tankfuls to make sure it wasn't just differences in pumps, etc. I checked that the tires are inflated to their max (44 psi).



As far as I know.
Al

I think you need to rethink your inflation pressure. Increased tire pressure may help fuel economy a little bit but it will also increase the effective diameter of the tire and throw the speedometer and odometer off, especially at lower speeds.

According to Michelin the correct tire for your Echo is P175/65R14 I think.

They show at 45 mph that tire should rotate at 897 revolutions per mile. That gives you an effective diameter of 22.48 inches (because the tire flattens as it rolls. If you increase the inflation pressure and in effect increase the effective diameter of the tire to say 23 inches, then the tire will only rotate 877 rotations per mile. That is about a 2.2% change in distance traveled.

It would be interesting to park the car on a flat surface and then alter the tire pressure and measure the change in bumper height and see how much it varies. Any significant change is going to effect your mileage calculations, especially at lower speeds. At high speeds tires will increase in size and there is no data from Michelin so it's hard say what will result.

I think tire over inflation is way over rated. Harder tires may get you a few more miles per gallon but it's also hard on the tires as far as resistance to road hazards and tread wear. Plus it's hard on bearings and suspension components which may lead to shorter component life down the road. And you loose a lot of the performance as far as wet weather traction and braking.

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Old 01-03-2009, 09:29 AM   #40
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I'll look into that, thanks.

I noticed a significant increase in MPG when we went from 35 psi to 44. What you said about tire diameter means that the increase was even higher than measured since we were traveling further than the odometer thought.

The Toyos lasted longer than their expected miles -- that's the first time that's ever happened for me.
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