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Old 05-12-2016, 07:00 PM   #21
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I do not see the cost of a charging station in the calcs...


Unless you just plan to plug it into an existing socket that will take a long time to charge...
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:24 PM   #22
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I do not see the cost of a charging station in the calcs...


Unless you just plan to plug it into an existing socket that will take a long time to charge...
Looks like that will be about $400 + $400 for 220 socket installation.

Car arrives today or tomorrow.

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Old 05-18-2016, 01:29 PM   #23
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My brother had it done for 200 euros.

Tesla dealership offered it for 4k (!).
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:43 PM   #24
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Took it to town, did some errands, and came back. 61 miles total and had 20 miles left.

I drove at 55 MPH in eco mode.

So, it will work, but I had hoped my wicked hypermiling skills would have gotten me more range.

The car's display tells me that my efficiency is 4 miles/kwH, so that improves the fuel cost comparison. $2775 elec vs 4714 gas.

There's a special electrical rate of EV Car owners that would let me charge at night for $.11 per KWH, but overall, that might not be advantageous.
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Old 05-19-2016, 05:40 PM   #25
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... The car's display tells me that my efficiency is 4 miles/kwH, so that improves the fuel cost comparison. $2775 elec vs 4714 gas. ...
That's from battery to motor, it does not account for charge losses. If you have 15% losses, you need ~ 1.18 kWh in to get 1 kWh out, so ~ 3.4 miles/kWh.

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Old 05-19-2016, 09:52 PM   #26
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If I were to get a Leaf to run errands, I would just plug it into a 115V outlet for trickle charging and not bother with a charging station.

We do not leave the home every day, and then we will also have a 2nd non-EV car for backup.

By the way, our off-peak rate is 7.41c/kWh.
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Old 05-19-2016, 10:19 PM   #27
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If I were to get a Leaf to run errands, I would just plug it into a 115V outlet for trickle charging and not bother with a charging station.
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Old 05-21-2016, 08:41 PM   #28
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If I were to get a Leaf to run errands, I would just plug it into a 115V outlet for trickle charging and not bother with a charging station.

We do not leave the home every day, and then we will also have a 2nd non-EV car for backup.

By the way, our off-peak rate is 7.41c/kWh.
The trickle charging is less efficient. There's a baseline usage of 300 watts, so having the charger on for 18 hours means you pay more for a charge.

Also, with Time of Use electricity, our low rate starts at 9 PM. With a trickle, you may need 20 hours of charging, so if you want the car ready at 7 AM, you're going to need to do some charging at 26 and 38 cents per KwH.

7.41c/kWH, wow!
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Old 05-21-2016, 08:47 PM   #29
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Today we drove to Eureka (32 miles away) and some other towns and did a lot of errands. We plugged into a charger, and while we spent an hour eating lunch, it went from 45 miles remaining to 75 miles remaining.



We visited a few other chargers that were near restaurants.

Quote:
That's from battery to motor, it does not account for charge losses.
Can you give me more info on that?
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Old 05-21-2016, 09:03 PM   #30
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That's from battery to motor, it does not account for charge losses.
Can you give me more info on that?
As I understand it, the in-car monitors are only telling you how many kWh you use from the battery. But re-charging the battery requires that amount of kWh PLUS the losses of getting that power into the battery.

You can't draw 1 kWh from the wall, charge the battery, and expect 1 kWh out. That would be 100% efficiency, and efficiency of the charger and battery round-trip charge/discharge is likely ~ 85%. So to get 1 kWh out, you need to put 1/85% in, ~ 1.18 kWh in.

That's based on the power from your wall socket. Of course there are other losses in the system to get it to your house, but those are already accounted for in what they charge you. So if you are calculating costs, the car monitor isn't the measure, the wall socket is. Some people get a meter placed on that charger socket, so they can get a true picture of their costs/consumption.

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Old 05-22-2016, 03:15 PM   #31
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True there are losses in conversion from AC to DC. Tesla states their conversion takes 11%. But many people seem to forget that electric cars are more efficient in converting stored energy into driving the vehicle. Electric drive vehicles do not consume energy while at rest or coasting, and some of the energy lost when braking is captured and reused through regenerative braking, which captures as much as one-fifth of the energy normally lost during braking.
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:30 PM   #32
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True there are losses in conversion from AC to DC. Tesla states their conversion takes 11%. But many people seem to forget that electric cars are more efficient in converting stored energy into driving the vehicle. Electric drive vehicles do not consume energy while at rest or coasting, and some of the energy lost when braking is captured and reused through regenerative braking, which captures as much as one-fifth of the energy normally lost during braking.
Whatever "many people seem to forget" is not relevant. Only the facts are.

The effects of regenerative braking, and the efficiency of the battery/motor are already in the numbers that T-Al reported. Charging losses are not. Since T-Al was trying to calculate the cost of his electrical power, he needs to know what is drawn from the socket, not just what was drawn from the battery.

And EVs certainly do consume energy while at rest or coasting. The AC/heat may still be on, lights, battery management, etc. And also look up "vampire" power and EVs.

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Old 05-22-2016, 03:31 PM   #33
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The initial cost of the electric/hybrid vehicle will be much higher however. The unknown part of the equation is the life span of the batteries.

If I was going electric or hybrid, I'd be leasing. Let the bank, manufacturer or leasing company take the risk of the lease end value.
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:27 PM   #34
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As I understand it, the in-car monitors are only telling you how many kWh you use from the battery. But re-charging the battery requires that amount of kWh PLUS the losses of getting that power into the battery.
Until I get my 220V charger installed, I can use my kill-a-watt meter. I ran one charge through that, and found that it took 11 kWh. I forget the particulars. Also, the "miles left" indicator (called the guess-o-meter) is not always right.

I should be able to come up with some pretty good from-the-wall numbers. We're going to go on a short drive today, and I'll see how long it takes to charge back up.
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:56 PM   #35
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Not knowing the state of the battery prior to charging, we do not know what the 11 kWh means (the S version has a 24 kWh battery, while the SV and SL has 30 kWh).

I think it is tough for any manufacturer to predict an accurate "miles left" number. That varies a lot with how fast one drives, up or down hill, head or tail wind, heating/cooling on or off, etc...

By the way, I saw that Nissan offers a DIY charging station for $1K. I wonder what electronics is inside one. Apparently, it is more than just a receptacle or plug.
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Old 05-22-2016, 05:10 PM   #36
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Not knowing the state of the battery prior to charging, we do not know what the 11 kWh means (the S version has a 24 kWh battery, while the SV and SL has 30 kWh).

I think it is tough for any manufacturer to predict an accurate "miles left" number. That varies a lot with how fast one drives, up or down hill, head or tail wind, heating/cooling on or off, etc... .
Right. There is some margin of error even in just stating the battery is "full", let alone predicting how many miles are left. The only accurate way is to monitor all charging kWh over a period of time, and miles driven. If they don't put meters on the chargers in town, that will be an unknown.

But there are lots of reports on the internet, I'm sure you can find several reports from users who monitor their 115V and/or 220V socket draw per mile over enough time to get a good average.

It's like the old days of filling the gas tank right to the top, setingt trip meter to zero, and when near empty, fill again right to the top (on level ground each time). A few cycles of those give you a good idea of mpg. You can even do a partial fill in between, as long as you record it, and fill to the top on the last cycle. But there is very little error in knowing when your tank is "full", so it's easy. Not so easy with battery SOC.

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Old 05-22-2016, 05:30 PM   #37
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Great topic,.

Perhaps A Tesla C.P.Owned Mdl S would be a game changer to look into, if you can't wait for The Mdl III. : )

From EIA: The growth of clean electricity and the reduction of vehicle emissions turn out to be closely linked. EVs are also, according to the Department of Energy, already a lot cheaper to operate in most places, even with the very low gas prices out there now. As of April 2, the average price of gas in the United States was $2.07, but an "electric eGallon" was $1.09, the agency said.

The prices are also potentially more stable. "I would much rather make you a bet on what the electricity price will be five years from now, than what the gasoline price will be five years from now," said the Union of Concerned Scientists' Reichmuth. "And when you buy a car, that's what you're doing.

Fact: The biggest consumer of oil in the U.S. is the Military, War is Peace, you want to compete with uncle Sam at the pump in the next five years? : (

Honestly: EV's are the most Fun on wheels!
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Old 05-22-2016, 07:12 PM   #38
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Great topic,.

Perhaps A Tesla C.P.Owned Mdl S would be a game changer to look into, if you can't wait for The Mdl III. : )

From EIA: The growth of clean electricity and the reduction of vehicle emissions turn out to be closely linked. EVs are also, according to the Department of Energy, already a lot cheaper to operate in most places, even with the very low gas prices out there now. As of April 2, the average price of gas in the United States was $2.07, but an "electric eGallon" was $1.09, the agency said.

The prices are also potentially more stable. "I would much rather make you a bet on what the electricity price will be five years from now, than what the gasoline price will be five years from now," said the Union of Concerned Scientists' Reichmuth. "And when you buy a car, that's what you're doing.

Fact: The biggest consumer of oil in the U.S. is the Military, War is Peace, you want to compete with uncle Sam at the pump in the next five years? : (

Honestly: EV's are the most Fun on wheels!
Someone is gonna be so happy you showed up.
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Old 05-23-2016, 08:07 AM   #39
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Okay, I did the full experiment.

Yesterday, we were at at full charge (actually 98%). We drove 42.5 miles. Overnight, I charged it up to 100%. The Kill-a-Watt meter showed me the it took 12.14 kWh to charge.

So, that comes to 3.5 miles/kWh.

That should improve a bit with the 220 V charger (although I won't be able to measure it).
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Old 05-23-2016, 08:29 AM   #40
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Okay, I did the full experiment.

Yesterday, we were at at full charge (actually 98%). We drove 42.5 miles. Overnight, I charged it up to 100%. The Kill-a-Watt meter showed me the it took 12.14 kWh to charge.

So, that comes to 3.5 miles/kWh.

That should improve a bit with the 220 V charger (although I won't be able to measure it).
That's a long way from a "full experiment". As some of us pointed out, the indicator for the SOC (State Of Charge) of the battery is not all that precise or repeatable. You have a single data point, and it would take far more than that to come up with a number that you can have any faith in. A longer term average might be better or worse than that initial number.

edit/add for more clarity: I also would not trust a bunch of single data points. If the SOC is inaccurate, you may just have a bunch of inaccurate numbers. A better way is a s I described earlier - charge to "full", record miles and all kWh in for several consecutive charge cycles. For example, if the SOC was 10% off, by the time you get to 10 cycles, that error is reduced to 1/10th, just 1%. Because you didn't rely on it for each cycle, only the start/end points. Sorry if this comes across as pedantic, but my career was involved in measurement and measurement error, so it's hard to let things like that just sit there!

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