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Old 07-25-2016, 07:03 AM   #61
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The BMW diesel is a fun car.

Other BMW's, not so much. But I am not the type of person that would buy an electric car. I doubt very much that I would even consider a hybrid given the premium that goes with its price.
I hated BMW's as a young man, but this diesel completely changed my views. To the point I am thinking of buying another one when this one is 3 years old.
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Old 07-25-2016, 08:07 AM   #62
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I like electric cars but they have too many wheels.

Two wheels is all I need -

Zero to 60 in 3.3 seconds? I think I need one of these for "burger runs" -
I pass a guy every morning on my commute to work that drives a Zero. It's on twisty backroads and you can tell he has a riot on it. Sometimes I stop at a stop sign at the same time he is there and listen to him take off. The acceleration is amazing and all you hear is the hiss of rubber on tarmac and a bit of electric whine.

I looked into them but probably will never get one. I test "sat" one at the motorcycle show and it was pretty sweet and nicely balanced. The price sticker scared off the penny pincher in me though.
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:55 AM   #63
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Thanks for answering our questions & comments TA, I've learned quite a bit regarding the EV experience.

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Old 07-25-2016, 11:32 AM   #64
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I forgot to mention another performance number regarding carrying your own Honda generator for backup.

For the popular Honda 2000i portable generator, Honda says that at its rated max output of 1.6kW, the fuel consumption is 3.64 hours for 1 gallon.

So, for 1 gallon with the backup generator, you can drive 3.64 hrs/gal x 1.6 kW x 3.9 miles/ kWh = 22.71 miles/gal.

That sounds about right, as small generators are not that efficient compared to large utility generating stations.

The real problem is that it would take you 4 hours of charging by the road shoulder to get enough juice to drive that 23 miles.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:01 PM   #65
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So, for 1 gallon with the backup generator, you can drive 3.64 hrs/gal x 1.6 kW x 3.9 miles/ kWh = 22.71 miles/gal.
Interesting, thanks for doing the math. That's actually a lot better MPG than I would have guessed given the thermodynamics of that small IC engine (lots of surface area and loss of heat per unit of displacement), the conversions (mechanical energy to electricity, battery losses, back to mechanical energy), and the relatively unsophisticated IC engine in the generator (compared to a modern car--no variable valve timing, use of a carburetor (egad!) etc).

Are we sure that 3.9 miles/KWH is for power into the car, or is it 3.9 miles per KWH delivered to the electric motors?
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:49 PM   #66
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So, for 1 gallon with the backup generator, you can drive 3.64 hrs/gal x 1.6 kW x 3.9 miles/ kWh = 22.71 miles/gal.
Interesting, thanks for doing the math. That's actually a lot better MPG than I would have guessed given the thermodynamics of that small IC engine (lots of surface area and loss of heat per unit of displacement), the conversions (mechanical energy to electricity, battery losses, back to mechanical energy), and the relatively unsophisticated IC engine in the generator (compared to a modern car--no variable valve timing, use of a carburetor (egad!) etc).

Are we sure that 3.9 miles/KWH is for power into the car, or is it 3.9 miles per KWH delivered to the electric motors?
Maybe a little generous, but in the ballpark I'd say.

At wiki, I see 2015 Nissan Leaf is 24 kWh battery, 84 EPA miles, for 3.5 miles / kWh. But I think you do need to figure charging losses, I think 90% efficiency is close? So 3.64*1.6*3.5*.9 = 18.35 mpg. Still better than I would think as well.

But also consider - no catalytic converter or much else in the way of pollution controls on that little generator. Pollution-wise, it may well be orders of magnitude worse than just driving an ICE/hybrid vehicle direct.

Of course, no one is going to do this for any significant miles, more of a thought experiment for reference/education.

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Old 07-25-2016, 01:06 PM   #67
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I imagine that this is "fun" in the same sense that retiring to raise hogs or keep a few chickens or run a b&b is fun. Fun only as an acceptable life complication that creates a way to deal with boredom among those who no longer need to make a living.

IOW, it is a hobby.

I don't have a car now, but if I did its major purpose would be to try to get me beyond harm's way, in the event of geophysical or climatological or social tremors. The LEAF, no matter how marvelous it may be for other purposes, does not seem like a first choice for getting out of Dodge.

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Old 07-25-2016, 01:11 PM   #68
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I imagine that this is "fun" in the same sense that retiring to raise hogs or keep a few chickens or run a b&b is fun. Fun only as an acceptable life complication that creates a way to deal with boredom among those who no longer need to make a living.

IOW, it is a hobby.

I don't have a car now, but if I did its major purpose would be to try to get me beyond harm's way, in the event of geophysical or climatological or social tremors. The LEAF, no matter how marvelous it may be for other purposes, does not seem like a first choice for getting out of Dodge.

Ha
When we had the last set of hurricanes here in The Gulf, we had no gasoline stations that could either receive fresh supplies, or had power to pump it. If you had an electric car, you would have made it as far as you had juice, and that wouldn't be far since all the main roads were stuffed with vehicles that ran out of fuel.

Sometimes, you just can't "get out of Dodge"!
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:15 PM   #69
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I imagine that this is "fun" in the same sense that retiring to raise hogs or keep a few chickens or run a b&b is fun. Fun only as an acceptable life complication that creates a way to deal with boredom among those who no longer need to make a living.

IOW, it is a hobby...


I am trying to think of upgrading 3 desktops and 2 laptops to Win 10 the same way. You've got to keep a sense of humor, else you would be doing this:
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:57 PM   #70
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I think I got this discussion going in the wrong direction by talking about my experiments with range.

Here's a hypothetical week in the life of the car, and it will show you that range and range anxiety are simply not issues. Note that we are much further from towns than most people. I show the round-trip miles for each trip.

  • Sunday: Lena meets her friends for running at a local park, 8 miles of driving (round trip).
    Lena goes to song circle, 17 miles
  • Monday: I go to the dentist. 35 miles.
  • Tuesday: Lena goes to choir. 35 miles.
  • Wednesday: We go into town for fun. 70 miles.
  • Thursday: Lena volunteers at the hospital. 36 miles.
  • Friday: Lena has coffee with her friends. 40 miles.
  • Saturday: We go into town for fun. 110 miles (with charging).

So, this shows how I'm some kind of weird introvert who stays home most of the time, and Lena gets to have fun driving the car.

Ha ha. No, it shows that range just isn't an issue. If we need to go further, we just take the Tacoma. No big deal.

This reminds me of the year 2000. I was in a swing band, and every week we had trouble organizing rehearsals and gigs. I suggested we use email to set things up.

The sax player said. "Hey. I've got a phone. You've got a phone. Why do we need email?"

I knew it was just his inexperience with email that made it hard for him to see the advantages. It's kind of like that with this: It's hard to judge the pros and cons until you've experienced it.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:02 PM   #71
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Are we sure that 3.9 miles/KWH is for power into the car, or is it 3.9 miles per KWH delivered to the electric motors?
It is the latter.

There have been different conclusions drawn related to the issue of overall environmental impact. That doesn't concern me much. I chose an electric car for the fun and the simplicity of it.

For example, from: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5...-powered-ones/
Renault recently made public a report that provides a fair assessment by comparing an electric version of its Fluence sedan with gas and diesel-powered versions of the same car. And it makes clear that electric cars are, indeed, better for the environment. The report is a life-cycle assessment, a “cradle to grave” analysis, including not only the emissions involved in using the car, but also the emissions from making it, the resources consumed in manufacturing, and a range of environmental impacts. It looked at not only greenhouse-gas emissions, but impacts on acid rain, ozone pollution, algae blooms, consumption of water and materials such as steel and copper, and total energy demand.

The study found that while the environmental impact of making electric vehicles is greater than for making gas and diesel vehicles, this is more than made up for by the greater impact of gas and diesel vehicles while they’re being used. This is true in terms of total energy consumption, use of resources, greenhouse gases, and ozone pollution.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:15 PM   #72
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Here's a hypothetical week in the life of the car, and it will show you that range and range anxiety are simply not issues...
Good to know that you are not a masochist nor a thrill seeker.

If I get one to run errands, my trips to Home Depot, the library or to the grocery stores will be under 20 miles round-trip. I don't think I would want to venture out to 110 miles (not sure there are many charging stations around here).
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:28 PM   #73
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I think I got this discussion going in the wrong direction by talking about my experiments with range.
I actually find the range part of the discussion the most interesting.
I ride a motorcycle with a small tank and no fuel gauge, I know approximately how many miles I can go before needing to fuel up, sometimes I ride until the engine sputters but then reach down and flip the reserve switch and know how far I can go to get gas. I understand what and why you do what you do.
To bad you don't have a reserve switch.
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Old 07-25-2016, 03:09 PM   #74
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To bad you don't have a reserve switch.
I remember this from a late 50s Beetle. No gas gauge, just that reserve switch. I think this car had 36 horsepower. There were grades on the Merritt Parkway that were close to impossible. Add a little headwind and forget about getting to NYC. There were some extremely popular cars that were truly awful. My friend had an old VW bus in the early 70s. Like to get blown off the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge more than once!

Sounds like the Leaf is a jewel compared to these things.

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Old 07-25-2016, 05:07 PM   #75
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Out of curiosity, I looked at local ads, and saw a 2011 Leaf offered by a dealer, asking a mere $8,900 for a car with 4,200 miles!

Could it be that the battery is all shot? But then, what about Nissan's factory warranty?
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Old 07-25-2016, 05:58 PM   #76
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I think I got this discussion going in the wrong direction by talking about my experiments with range.
...........
No, the problem is you went out and bought an electric car without permission from the experts here and now you have the nerve to be actually enjoying it.

Have you no shame?
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:05 PM   #77
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Nah, we never have consensus on anything. Travel or stay home. Pay off the mortgage or not. Drawing SS early or late. Retire and let wife work or not. OMY or not. Eat out everyday or cook at home. Buying a 2nd home or not. Be a landlord or not. Picking stock or indexing. Dividend stock or growth.

I just want T-Al to know nobody's picking on him personally.
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:09 PM   #78
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Why do they all have to be so damn ugly?

I would easily have bought a used one by now for my 8mi ride to work if they didn't look like crap! (yeah, I care about that). No amount of fun can overcome that for me right now......

[Edit] - I can't afford an i8 or a Tesla.
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:11 PM   #79
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Hey, "ugliness" is in the eye of the beholder. I have not owned one, but I think they look fine.

Some recent ICE cars I have seen are ugly as sin. Some have headlights that look like those on toy cars. The missus even agreed with me.
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:35 PM   #80
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...

I just want T-Al to know nobody's picking on him personally.
The idea that anyone is picking on him, or don't like that he is enjoying the car seems totally manufactured to me. I have no idea why anyone would think that way? It just strikes me as a straw man to knock down. But why?

The only thing I can figure, is those people want to be able to reject any and all critiques of an EV, so they lump them all together as 'sour grapes' or knee-jerk reaction, or whatever?

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