Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-25-2016, 06:39 PM   #81
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 17,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
It is the latter.

There have been different conclusions drawn related to the issue of overall environmental impact. That doesn't concern me much. I chose an electric car for the fun and the simplicity of it. ...
You should have left it as "(environmental impact) doesn't concern me much".

But then you throw in a source that says EVs are better. Might make a guy feel like he needs to respond to that...

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-25-2016, 07:34 PM   #82
Recycles dryer sheets
swakyaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern Cal
Posts: 194
Some people just seem like thread-killers.

But I do enjoy your musings on owning an electric car, TA.
__________________

__________________
swakyaby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2016, 07:23 AM   #83
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,754
I drive whatever I want, and y'all can kiss my ICE! 😎
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2016, 08:01 AM   #84
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,115
This thread made me think about what it is I enjoy about having an electric car. I've decided it's:

  1. The simplicity of fewer moving parts.
  2. Fewer liquids
Moving Parts

I have a clear memory of hearing, as a child, a commercial that touted a product as having fewer moving parts. I recall wondering why that was a selling point. My dad explained the advantage of fewer moving parts, and ever since I've been a fan of things that have fewer moving parts.

It's why I like this:



better than this:



or this:



An electric motor has fewer moving parts,



An ICE has more.



Plus, an electric car doesn't need a transmission:




The Tesla motor is predicted to last 1,000,000 miles.

Fewer Liquids

I liked physics better than chemistry because there were fewer messy liquids involved. That's why I didn't consider a car with a gasoline range extender. I wanted to be done with gas and oil. Yes, there are some liquids in the LEAF.

The two times I've driven our 1999 Tacoma since getting the LEAF, it's felt clunky and old-fashioned. Granted, it is eighteen years old, but starting it up and putting gas in it and having exhaust come out just seems messy.

-------------

So, those are my musings about why I like having an electric car. I can't defend them as valid, but it's how I feel.
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2016, 08:49 AM   #85
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 17,962
I am all sold on EVs. And I do not care for a muscle EV like the Tesla either.

But I will hang out for a while to make sure their battery will last. Besides, my existing cars still run, and I am frugal and not a car lover.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2016, 08:57 AM   #86
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
This thread made me think about what it is I enjoy about having an electric car. I've decided it's:

  1. The simplicity of fewer moving parts.
  2. Fewer liquids
.................................................. .

I have a clear memory of hearing, as a child, a commercial that touted a product as having fewer moving parts. I recall wondering why that was a selling point. My dad explained the advantage of fewer moving parts, and ever since I've been a fan of things that have fewer moving parts.

So, those are my musings about why I like having an electric car. I can't defend them as valid, but it's how I feel.
Nice try, Al. You may get forgiveness, but never permission.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 08:24 AM   #87
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 17,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
This thread made me think about what it is I enjoy about having an electric car. I've decided it's:

  1. The simplicity of fewer moving parts.
  2. Fewer liquids
...

So, those are my musings about why I like having an electric car. I can't defend them as valid, but it's how I feel.
Far fewer moving parts is a definite attraction for an EV (along with quiet and impressive acceleration). Here's an alternative I've talked about - only one added moving part, and eliminates the range issues (that are very real for most people, even if you have not experienced them... yet).

The Route Powertrain | Wrightspeed Powertrains

Add a turbine engine, it runs at only one speed/load to recharge the batteries when needed, and provides a real environmental benefit (reduced fuel consumption and cleaner burning, rather than moving the pollution to the electric generation plant).

This doesn't appear to scale down to passenger cars presently, it looks like the turbine needs to be truck-sized. It is too expensive and I think not efficient enough at smaller sizes for a car. Future advances in material sciences might make a turbine practical at small sizes in the future, but maybe not. But that's a good thing in a way, as Wright points out, these trucks consume a LOT of fuel (low mpg and high annual miles). Better to focus on mpg improvements where it counts. More in this thread:

Enviro-Green Tech: The Good? (not the Bad and the Ugly)

And while the lower parts count is certainly attractive, in real terms it seems to not be a very big deal. The drive trains of today's cars are so reliable, it seems that there are really very few problems. Spark plugs rated for 100,000 miles. I think one is much more likely to have problems with all the common accessory parts - A/C-heat, window mechanisms, radio, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
The two times I've driven our 1999 Tacoma since getting the LEAF, it's felt clunky and old-fashioned. Granted, it is eighteen years old, but starting it up and putting gas in it and having exhaust come out just seems messy.
And granted, it can haul firewood like I've seen in some of your other posts. Not much of a comparison. Your Leaf has an exhaust pipe too, it's just miles away at the fossil fuel plant on your grid that powers the marginal added electric power needed for your EV.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 09:02 AM   #88
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 17,962
An advantage of the EV is that electric motors are much more efficient than combustion engines.

One gallon of gasoline has the energy of 33 kWh. T-Al said his Leaf gets 3.9 mi/kWh. So, that would be 129 mpg for the ideal conversion. That high number allows for a lot of inefficiencies in the power generation, transmission, charging, and discharging processes. Large generating stations are much more efficient than a bunch of little ones.

From what I see, the real drawback remains the cost and lifetime of the battery. I am very curious to see if Elon Musk can solve this problem as he promised.

By the way, the 33kWh that is contained in 1 gal of gasoline costs me $2.31 during off-peak hours, and $7.21 during on-peak, as delivered to my wall outlets. That's pretty darn good, and we should not forget to give credit to the power companies (yes, some of them burn coal to give us that cheap power ).
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 09:29 AM   #89
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 17,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
An advantage of the EV is that electric motors are much more efficient than combustion engines.

One gallon of gasoline has the energy of 33 kWh. T-Al said his Leaf gets 3.9 mi/kWh. So, that would be 129 mpg for the ideal conversion. That high number allows for a lot of inefficiencies in the power generation, transmission, charging, and discharging processes. Large generating stations are much more efficient than a bunch of little ones. ...
Not really such a big difference in efficiency overall. I did the math with clifp a while back. While the most modern generation plants are listed as ~ 60% efficiency, these are not common - they need to be co-located where the lower level heat can be used.

From my notes, 35%-40% is more typical for a large gas turbine at the generating station. Then offset by ~ 8% grid loss, and 10%-15% charging losses, and ~ 10% driving losses (rough estimates), and you have:

.37 * .92 * .87 *. 9 ~ 26.7% efficiency for an EV. Good, but a modern hybrid probably is pretty close to that? Or .37 * .92 * .87 * the 129 mpg-e (the driving losses are included in the 129 # I think) you mentioned would be ~ 38.2 mpg, which a hybrid can beat.

Of course this can keep going into the weeds, including the refining 'costs' for the gasoline versus the coal/NG for an EV, etc. But rough cut wise, while the electric motor is amazingly efficient at converting the energy in the battery to forward motion, it is only a small step in the overall process, and doesn't appear to be so great compared to a modern hybrid.

(edit for driving losses included, I think, in the 129 mpg estimate)

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 10:36 AM   #90
Recycles dryer sheets
Beldar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
This thread made me think about what it is I enjoy about having an electric car. I've decided it's:
Oh how I remember working with those things!

_B
__________________
Beldar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 12:45 PM   #91
Full time employment: Posting here.
GravitySucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Syracuse
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beldar View Post
Oh how I remember working with those things!



_B

I remember having to adjust the tracking.
__________________
“No, not rich. I am a poor man with money, which is not the same thing"
GravitySucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 11:10 AM   #92
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Utrecht
Posts: 1,836
Nice sneak preview of the Tesla Gigafactory. Preview as in you don't get the see the actual manufacturing process.

This thing is huge ..

__________________
Totoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 03:26 PM   #93
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,115
A recent experiment: Driving 12 miles at 55 MPH with no sudden accelerations used up 18% less juice than driving those same miles with two pedal-the-the-metal accelerations and a speed of 65 MPH.

Our longest trip without charging was 70 miles, and we had 20 remaining when we got home.

And most important: It still has some new-car smell.
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 09:28 PM   #94
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 2,465
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post

And most important: It still has some new-car smell.
Probably just some ozone!
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 09:43 PM   #95
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 2,188
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Not really such a big difference in efficiency overall. I did the math with clifp a while back. While the most modern generation plants are listed as ~ 60% efficiency, these are not common - they need to be co-located where the lower level heat can be used.


-ERD50
Note that the quoted efficiency for a combined cycle gas turbine is about 60% since the waste heat from the gas turbine is used to make steam and drive a steam turbine. It is these plants that are making older coal plants and nuclear plants uneconomic.
BTW as an aside the first central station plants were about 5% efficient (input energy to output energy at the Pearl Street Edison Station in NYC). Apparently it was hard to get a lot of efficiency from a reciprocating steam engine. It is this factor of 12 increase in efficiency that has resulted in the drastic fall in the real cost of electricity since 1880.
__________________
meierlde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 10:47 PM   #96
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 17,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by meierlde View Post
Note that the quoted efficiency for a combined cycle gas turbine is about 60% since the waste heat from the gas turbine is used to make steam and drive a steam turbine. It is these plants that are making older coal plants and nuclear plants uneconomic. ....
Yes, but as I understand, Combined Cycle plants make up a small portion of total electrical power. You need a co-located demand for the lower heat output.

This source:

Cogeneration / Combined Heat and Power (CHP) | Center for Climate and Energy Solutions

mentions CC makes up ~ 9% of total US electrical production, and talks about the effects of reaching 20% by 2030 (though they are not forecasting that number).

So 60% efficiency is great, but if it applies to say 15% of the output, and the other 85% is at 30%, it only moves the average from 30% to 34.5%.


-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ER in 4 months...or 11 months...or 24 months... GreyDawg Hi, I am... 3 01-05-2012 05:50 AM
FI now and RE in two months - yay! NotReady4Purple Hi, I am... 25 11-21-2008 08:22 PM
51, FIRE'd two months ago shotgunner Hi, I am... 12 07-14-2008 01:03 PM
That's it. Two more months! huutrinon FIRE and Money 2 10-03-2007 07:32 PM
New car, old car, same car? cute fuzzy bunny Other topics 74 06-15-2006 04:27 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:10 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.