|
|
12-16-2014, 09:18 AM
|
#61
|
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,735
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermion
Great. So our trade deficit becomes even larger as we import more Chinese goods for our superstores and import more oil because it is cheaper to import than produce ourselves.
If you play the very long game, I don't see how that is a positive for the USA.
|
I agree.
__________________
*********Go Yankees!*********
|
|
|
|
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!
Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!
|
12-16-2014, 09:26 AM
|
#62
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 38,154
|
I don't think the shale oil industry is a big enough part of the US GDP to cause a great deal of harm. I don't believe it will "collapse" either, just slow down quite a bit. Yes, we will lose some jobs there, but we may gain jobs in another places as a result of lower oil prices benefitting other industries. A shock of this nature always has ripples, but I believe they will eventually settle.
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
|
|
|
12-16-2014, 09:26 AM
|
#63
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,022
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermion
...import more oil because it is cheaper to import than produce ourselves.
If you play the very long game, I don't see how that is a positive for the USA.
|
Any merit to saving our petroleum resources and using up the other guy's first?
__________________
Numbers is hard
|
|
|
12-16-2014, 09:46 AM
|
#64
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,069
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Running_Man
This oil decline is a highly deflationary move to the economies of the world and the idea that this is stimulative seems incredulous to me how many people truly believe oil declines are good for the economy. A 1.3 trillion dollar per year revenue stream is being taken away at present prices, with oil valuations of earning assets being priced at 3X EBITDA this means an additional decline of 5 trillion in the value of the assets producing the world's oil, whether those are junk financed assets or AAA assets.
|
Lower prices on any commodity are ultimately positive for society. When prices>production cost, that means the producer is restricting supply and maximizing profit at expense of the consumer. "Social Surplus" is NOT maximized.
Yes the companies margins are higher (becuase they have market power and are influencing the market at the expense of the consumer), but consumers are not getting as much product as they can use.
As we push the price closer to the equilibrium of supply and demand, social surplus increases. Yes the oil companies run tight on profit, but society overall gains, from a basic microeconomic viewpoint.
In real life, change hurts, so this is a messy transistion (or even temporary), not a simple set of line equations. If lower prices do stick around, there will be winners and loser, but overal, mankind benefits. (I'm ignoring all pollution externalities, that's another conversation)
|
|
|
12-16-2014, 09:52 AM
|
#65
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 17,266
|
What I find fascinating is the number of people who think lower oil and energy prices are going to hurt the economy. Certainly, there will be winners and losers. But overall, I expect far more winners than losers.
This should be a huge boost for our economy and may even help get our anemic recovery up to speed.
__________________
Comparison is the thief of joy
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
|
|
|
12-16-2014, 10:13 AM
|
#66
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,069
|
I think what we can all agree on is STABILITY is best for business. High or low prices, uncertainty stalls progress/investment.
|
|
|
12-16-2014, 03:38 PM
|
#67
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2006
Location: west coast, hi there!
Posts: 8,809
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut
What I find fascinating is the number of people who think lower oil and energy prices are going to hurt the economy. Certainly, there will be winners and losers. But overall, I expect far more winners than losers.
This should be a huge boost for our economy and may even help get our anemic recovery up to speed.
|
Maybe the ones who will be disproportionately hurt will loose jobs or large dollar investments. They are the ones who are most exposed to the energy industry. Their stories might be played up in the press a bit more.
For each one of these there are many more who will have a few bucks more for spending. I don't know what that ratio is, but it's probably more then 10:1.
|
|
|
12-16-2014, 08:14 PM
|
#68
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 7,113
|
Here is my take: the price of oil is purely a supply and demand issue. Right now the suppliers are willing to produce notwithstanding the fact that lower demand is driving the price down, precipitously. Who am I to understand the production why.. it just is.
What will be the impact of this precipitous price drop? Russia and Iran, perhaps ISiS, depend on oil revenues. They will see significantly less income which might contribute to political instability/deal making. In North America many new producers will be in a price squeeze... loans based on higher prices are in jeopardy as is the exploration infrastructure. [reflect for a moment on the big bank deal just cut in the funding legislation. Think they saw that coming?]
Refiners, to the extent that they don't have a lot of contracts based on old crude costs, will do fine. Consumers will be happy. Natural gas prices are lower but most utilities have existing contract rates so the consumer won't see a drop in the near term but natural gas utilities will keep the spread.
Messy fall out: Russia from a political, not global economic POV; higher yield bonds in the US. The rest, in the US, will be a difficult shakeout in oil service companies.
My $0.02.
__________________
Duck bjorn.
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 01:15 PM
|
#69
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,438
|
Gov. Cuomo bans fracking in NY state due to health concerns.
Some economically depressed communities in the state had been pushing for it, so that they could reap the economic benefits.
But Cuomo had faced challenges from the more liberal part of his party over the issue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/ny...isks.html?_r=0
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 02:40 PM
|
#70
|
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,735
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade
Gov. Cuomo bans fracking in NY state due to health concerns.
Some economically depressed communities in the state had been pushing for it, so that they could reap the economic benefits.
But Cuomo had faced challenges from the more liberal part of his party over the issue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/ny...isks.html?_r=0
|
Reading the above article doesn't specify or provide a link to the the testing data that has confirmed health concerns? Am I missing something here?
__________________
*********Go Yankees!*********
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 03:02 PM
|
#71
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,438
|
I think it's mostly about the political aspect.
Sounds like their health dept. issued a separate report.
Guessed the telling thing is, would you want to live where fracking is occurring. Some NY residents in the area near the PA border stood to make over a million from fracking rights, while 3 miles across the border, some people made out well.
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 03:56 PM
|
#72
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,899
|
Maybe they updated it, I saw this link:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ng-report.html
Haven't read it yet, so can't comment on content, but I thought this was interesting wording:
Quote:
The Cuomo administration decided to ban hydraulic fracturing after concluding that the method posed inestimable public-health risks. DEC. 17, 2014.
|
inestimable? They can't estimate the risks? Hmmmm.
-ERD50
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 04:08 PM
|
#73
|
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,735
|
Gosh, pages 11 & 12 (Conclusions) really tell the story on the quantified risks. I can't copy it so you will have to read it online.
I've done oil & gas work all over western NY and also northern PA and western Ohio. NY only has stripper wells in most western areas that are near end of life. No real need to do anymore drilling there as the communities are small and do count for many votes in NY.
On the other hand, Ohio is going gangbusters with production in the Utica Shale. No complaints there and lots of new gas and jobs.
BTW, these plays are mostly gas and very little oil.
__________________
*********Go Yankees!*********
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 04:47 PM
|
#74
|
Gone but not forgotten
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Peru
Posts: 6,335
|
A different view:
In September, Kerry visits the Saudi's...
The win-win scenario:
Saudi's worried about their neighbors Syria and Iran...
Saudi's have virtually unlimited oil..
Russia cozy with Iran and Syria.
US worried about a China collapse.
Saudi's sell oil below market $50 to China.
This destroys Russia and Iran economy.
Stops the Iran bomb threat
Gives China a lifeline.
US wins!
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 05:06 PM
|
#75
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 7,113
|
Works for me.
__________________
Duck bjorn.
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 05:22 PM
|
#76
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,438
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888
Gosh, pages 11 & 12 (Conclusions) really tell the story on the quantified risks. I can't copy it so you will have to read it online.
I've done oil & gas work all over western NY and also northern PA and western Ohio. NY only has stripper wells in most western areas that are near end of life. No real need to do anymore drilling there as the communities are small and do count for many votes in NY.
On the other hand, Ohio is going gangbusters with production in the Utica Shale. No complaints there and lots of new gas and jobs.
BTW, these plays are mostly gas and very little oil.
|
But the bottom line is, would you consider buying property which is near fracking activities?
The concerns are about water contamination and seismic instability.
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 05:25 PM
|
#77
|
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,223
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by imoldernu
A different view:
In September, Kerry visits the Saudi's...
The win-win scenario:
Saudi's worried about their neighbors Syria and Iran...
Saudi's have virtually unlimited oil..
Russia cozy with Iran and Syria.
US worried about a China collapse.
Saudi's sell oil below market $50 to China.
This destroys Russia and Iran economy.
Stops the Iran bomb threat
Gives China a lifeline.
US wins!
|
You forgot North Korea and Sony Pictures on the list
__________________
" A person is smart, but People are dumb, dangerous, panicky animals, and you know it " Agent "K", Men in Black
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 07:00 PM
|
#78
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,899
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade
But the bottom line is, would you consider buying property which is near fracking activities?
The concerns are about water contamination and seismic instability.
|
They are concerns, yes - but are they reasonable concerns? I don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other, but I know that lots of people are concerned about things that are not worth being concerned about. And that just distracts from the stuff they should be concerned about.
-ERD50
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 07:10 PM
|
#79
|
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,438
|
Unless you get mineral rights, it might at least be like buying property which is near constant construction activities, even if you don't have water table problems.
The executives of those fracking companies probably aren't buying residential properties in those areas.
|
|
|
12-19-2014, 07:23 PM
|
#80
|
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,735
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade
Unless you get mineral rights, it might at least be like buying property which is near constant construction activities, even if you don't have water table problems.
The executives of those fracking companies probably aren't buying residential properties in those areas.
|
Let me tell you otherwise, the execs of the oil and gas companies are dying to get their hands on leases where drilling is going to occur.
Most modern wells are not near residential areas and you only break the formation once, then the well flows back. Once the reservoir pressure is equalized (over time and variable), the well is put on a pump system (if it's oil).
And many people are very happy to have wells near them or on their property, especially if it's just farmland or ranch land. Even if you don't have mineral rights (which could produce an income stream of several hundred thousand dollars to millions), you end up leasing the surface rights for a good fee.
It's not all bad.
I've seen monthly royalty checks to farmers that were over $100,000. Pretty much most of rural Fort Worth residents are now millionaires from the Barnett gas wells.
__________________
*********Go Yankees!*********
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Threads
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
» Quick Links
|
|
|