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Old 03-07-2009, 09:12 AM   #21
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Rambler, it's sad that hear that someone 47 is considered "too old". It's probably because you're running your own country operations. Most 47 year olds are just making VP, and the slower ones are just making director, so those guys probably can still do a horizontal move somewhere else.

Let me show you the flip side of story. I'm late 30s but look 28, so I can get all kinds of jobs, but they are jobs that would be great for a 28-year-old guys, but do I feel happy making salaries that's 40K-50k less than my peak earnings? Heck no.
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Old 03-07-2009, 09:52 AM   #22
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Rambler, I thought that someone would reply that "is pretty much the reality." I know it's the reality. My rant is that it's WRONG. You don't kick someone when they're down. You respect your elders. A Darwinian world may be the reality in nature. But we are human. We can make a choice to be kind. That doesn't mean you give priority to a boomer over a 20 something. But you treat them with respect and that means that you give them credit for their experience and you don't expect them to downsize their resume.
While the segment is unnecessarily harsh (probably deliberate to get your attention), it's not wrong IMO. I am 54, and I would most likely hire an energetic, younger employee as well. I have 2 young Engineers I hired in the past few years, and I have passed over many Engineers my age. Not because of their age, but because their skills are way out of date (pretty dumb in an interview to tell me you kinda/sorta know something about MS Office, but not so much the internet...). My 2 young Engineers are paid well, but less than the older Engineers wanted. What they lack in experience, they more than make up for in up to date skills and a willingness to change the status quo for the better. There are exceptions to be sure, but younger employees accept, even seek change as a rule, older employees want to stick with what they're comfortable with and make change difficult whether by outright resistance (usually simple 'fear of the unknown') or an inability to adapt (weak skills and/or a lack of confidence in learning something new) . You can't be competitive respecting experience whether they're down or not.
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Old 03-07-2009, 09:58 AM   #23
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There are exceptions to be sure, but younger employees accept, even seek change as a rule, older employees want to stick with what they're comfortable with and make change difficult whether by outright resistance or an inability to adapt.
Fair enough, but this still means the "exceptions" are screwed. I'm 43 now, which is putting me on the cusp of being "old" in terms of a job search -- especially in the technology arena. I've always looked forward to learning new things, gaining new skills and all that.

I'm starting to realize why Social Security was so necessary to create. No one wants to hire the older folks in a terrible economy where there are dozens of qualified applicants for every job, so it was either create an old-age pension or let them starve and freeze on the street.
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Old 03-07-2009, 10:12 AM   #24
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1992. Age 49. Unemployed. After a while looking around - made the mental transititon to ER.

Oh yeah - the born again sha zam of become a cheap bastard helped.

That was a lot of fun.

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Old 03-07-2009, 10:15 AM   #25
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While the segment is unnecessarily harsh (probably deliberate to get your attention), it's not wrong IMO. I am 54, and I would most likely hire an energetic, younger employee as well. I have 2 young Engineers I hired in the past few years, and I have passed over many Engineers my age. Not because of their age, but because their skills are way out of date (pretty dumb in an interview to tell me you kinda/sorta know something about MS Office, but not so much the internet...). My 2 young Engineers are paid well, but less than the older Engineers wanted. What they lack in experience, they more than make up for in up to date skills and a willingness to change the status quo for the better. There are exceptions to be sure, but younger employees accept, even seek change as a rule, older employees want to stick with what they're comfortable with and make change difficult whether by outright resistance (usually simple 'fear of the unknown') or an inability to adapt (weak skills and/or a lack of confidence in learning something new) . You can't be competitive respecting experience whether they're down or not.
Conversely, one of the research scientists in our group is probably pushing 70 (yeah, he'll never "retire"). He's smart enough to help the grad students and PhD candidates find their way through the maze of technical papers, to focus their energies, and find the gotchas. Age doesn't necessarily come with wisdom, but it often does... Many of the young whippersnappers on Wall Street could've used a critical eye looking over their shoulders?
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Old 03-07-2009, 11:14 AM   #26
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I'm 58 and we retired about a year ago. I thought I should try to return to work and applied for Florida state jobs(you can only apply with an online application). I heard nothing for two months and was called in for an interview.I thought it went well and spent 4 hours meeting everyone.I was told the head of the dept. would call me back for a final interview.I never got the call and received a form e mail telling me someone more experience and qualified had been hired.This process seemed incredibly cold to me. All they had to do was send a short e mail from the person who showed me around and I would have felt better about it.I know it's tough out there now and this whining on my part lead me to the conclusion that we're not desperate enough to do what it takes to get a job. Instead we're going to tighten the budget and see if the numbers will work.I feel for Boomers trying to get back in the work force.If we can make it, paying much less in taxes will make me feel better to.
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Old 03-07-2009, 11:24 AM   #27
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Fair enough, but this still means the "exceptions" are screwed. I'm 43 now, which is putting me on the cusp of being "old" in terms of a job search -- especially in the technology arena. I've always looked forward to learning new things, gaining new skills and all that.

I'm starting to realize why Social Security was so necessary to create. No one wants to hire the older folks in a terrible economy where there are dozens of qualified applicants for every job, so it was either create an old-age pension or let them starve and freeze on the street.
Nonsense!

Go back 20 years and the kinds of attitudes reported in the article were the same attitudes supervisors and managers were told to be aware of. Public press was commenting on age discrimination by Boomers.

Its true in every generation. There was nothing new in that article. The difference is there are laws now that protect people, and well-managed companies know it and try to abide by them.

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Old 03-07-2009, 11:29 AM   #28
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Nonsense!

Go back 20 years and the kinds of attitudes reported in the article were the same attitudes supervisors and managers were told to be aware of. Public press was commenting on age discrimination by Boomers.
These attitudes have long been held across generations, yes, but my point was that it's in a terrible economy with high unemployment when it's really felt, sharply and acutely. In a decent economy you could even get a chance at an interview which could at least give you a face-to-face chance to win them over.

Hard to impress them and overcome their biases if they won't even give you an interview, though.

These have long been the attitudes, but when the economic pendulum shifts to the favor of job-seekers -- I lived in Silicon Valley through the 1990s, to give you one example -- hiring managers and HR staff may give older workers a chance out of necessity. In *this* economy, and in other past terrible job markets, they don't need to.
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Old 03-07-2009, 11:38 AM   #29
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There are exceptions to be sure, but younger employees accept, even seek change as a rule, older employees want to stick with what they're comfortable with and make change difficult whether by outright resistance (usually simple 'fear of the unknown') or an inability to adapt (weak skills and/or a lack of confidence in learning something new) . You can't be competitive respecting experience whether they're down or not.
I don't have any reason to believe that your portrayal is not accurate for your workplace. But all of the characteristics of older workers that you describe are stereotypes that you hear about over and over as a justification for not hiring older workers. The real reasons are what some others on this thread have stated: that young bosses want to hire someone like themselves; that salaries and health benefits for younger people cost less; that stereotypes overrule rationality, etc. etc.

What I meant by WRONG is the moral sense that you don't throw your elders out into the street just because they are older than you, which is basically what the program was implying.

Another point: If all this is the real world and older workers are dumped and can't get jobs, then what is the "real world" solution? I know plenty of women my age who are now living on meager free lance or PT jobs. They will not have paid for houses and will be living on social security. I see their future as rooming house tenents who have no extra money for anything but food. When they become sick, will Medicare be there in 10-15 years?

I may be overexaggerating but I fear not. This leads me to a point that is off the thread topic but directly related. This employment situation is why we need more taxes to provide a strong safety net. Anyone can become unemployed in their 50s or 60s or could become very sick at any time as well. If there's no strong safety net (unemployment insurance, universal health insurance, a viable social security program) provided by taxes then anyone could become a casualty.

If the strong safety net is not there, then the real world result of this downturn will be a greatly increased savings rate, which would be a good thing except that the unintended consequence will be a continual contraction of the consumer economy. Some may say that's ok. But it will mean fewer jobs for everyone too until the next big thing starts up the economy again.

I don't want to live in a Darwinian world where more and more elderly people are homeless, sick and on the street all over our beautiful land.
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Old 03-07-2009, 11:43 AM   #30
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I may be overexaggerating but I fear not. This leads me to a point that is off the thread topic but directly related. This employment situation is why we need more taxes to provide a strong safety net. Anyone can become unemployed in their 50s or 60s or could become very sick at any time as well. If there's no strong safety net (unemployment insurance, universal health insurance, a viable social security program) provided by taxes then anyone could become a casualty.

I don't want to live in a Darwinian world where more and more elderly people are homeless, sick and on the street all over our beautiful land.
My gut feeling is that we will be seeing at least a partial resurgence of the "extended family" or "multi-generational household."

If you think about it, the "nuclear family" concept really only took off with the prosperity bubble occurring after WW2. The first "modern suburbs" were built in the late 1940s and the concept took off. But a "nuclear family" requires a lot more affluence than the extended family; if two can live more cheaply than one, then 3-4 generations can live more cheaply than one or two. That post-WW2 prosperity bubble popped decades ago, but only now are we really being forced to adjust to it.

A lot of people here may shudder at the thought of living with parents or grandparents or grandchildren, but for much of our history (and to this day in much of the world) that has been pretty common, and I think the adjustment to a "new normal" may cause an increase in the number of households in such an arrangement. And for a lot of people, like it or not, I think it could be a matter of survival. As there are fewer gainful employment opportunities, we may see more kids moving back with their parents and parents moving back in with their kids.
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Old 03-07-2009, 11:55 AM   #31
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T
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These have long been the attitudes, but when the economic pendulum shifts to the favor of job-seekers -- I lived in Silicon Valley through the 1990s, to give you one example -- hiring managers and HR staff may give older workers a chance out of necessity. In *this* economy, and in other past terrible job markets, they don't need to.
When did we stop hearing about the fear of a "brain drain" as baby boomers all retire at once? That may have been an indicator.

Ziggy, is your current area also tech/computer? Seems like places like that thrive on new ideas; young people trained by middle-aged professors. I know a recent retiree from the computer engineering world who now does volunteer work at the local university; he's stretching his brain to keep ahead of the students.
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:00 PM   #32
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Ziggy, is your current area also tech/computer? Seems like places like that thrive on new ideas; young people trained by middle-aged professors. I know a recent retiree from the computer engineering world who now does volunteer work at the local university; he's stretching his brain to keep ahead of the students.
Yeah, I'm a techie with a CS degree. Of course, the nearest university to me currently is UT-Austin, which is about 75 miles away. There aren't even any community colleges closer than that. That was a chance we took when we moved here, but I don't think we planned for the employment situation to get *this* bad. Ordinarily I don't my wife would have had as much problem getting a job here as she has. But in this economy, there's always someone more qualified, more experienced, or more connected. And in a small town it helps to come from the right family...

I'm still doing some new and cool stuff in my current job and using every chance I can get to learn new stuff -- I've always thrived on change and learning new things, which is one of the reasons I went into the technology arena. Though I am also starting to work on some certifications to add to the resume which complement experience I've actually had in the past.
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:42 PM   #33
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On Oldbabe’s other thread I mentioned that I went to an orchid expo yesterday. It was a “pay attention” moment for me. For years I went on weekends not noticing it is an annual fund raiser for a non-profit orchid society. I used to even go to other orchid shows with a neighbor who donates her plants; but going to this one on a Friday, alone, got me noticing all the volunteers.

I think the problem OP brings up about how hard it is for seniors to find jobs is compounded by the expectation that after a full career, people should pay back thru volunteer work. And there is a lot of fun stuff out there beyond soup kitchens and food pantries.
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Old 03-07-2009, 01:24 PM   #34
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This brought back some painful memories for me. I graduated from college in my mid 30s. Prior to this, I had worked my way up from a bank teller to branch manager at what is now Bank of America and continued working part time through college. I graduated with an accounting degree from a good school, was in the top 5% of my class, and was active in the accounting honor society.

I participated in on-campus job fairs and received training on interviewing and resume writing. Everyone told me my interview skills were superb, so I thought I would have my pick of jobs. I decided to apply to the "big 6" accounting firms as I believed this experience would set me up for a great career in the accounting profession.

Along with many of my fellow classmates, I carefully prepared my resume for review by representatives from the big 6 firms. They reviewed the resumes and posted the names of those who earned interviews on a public bulletin board. I'll never forget crowding around the listings with my classmates and slowly coming to the realization not one of them selected me for an interview. Others were cheering and "high fiving" each other because they were selected for numerous interviews. I was devastated and went to my car and sobbed. My advisor later explained the big 6 only wanted very young people and there was nothing wrong with me. I will never forget that experience. It was my first brush with ageism and was heartbreaking.

I ended up getting a government job which was fine for me in the long run. I also passed the CPA exam on the first try. Many of my former classmates took the exam at the same time and the only other one to pass the whole exam on the first try was a lady about my age.
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Old 03-07-2009, 01:56 PM   #35
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Ever since I ERd a few years ago I have W**ked a temp job now and then just to pick up some walking around cash and to qualify for unemployment compensation. I notice that this year even temp jobs are getting scarce in our area. Oh, they are still around, you just have to know where they are hiding.
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Old 03-07-2009, 09:01 PM   #36
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Economic tims like these make me glad I have been in sales for 25 years. If you produce, it doesn't matter how old you are........
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Old 03-07-2009, 10:57 PM   #37
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Sorry Oldbabe but that is pretty much the reality. This is essentially my biggest reason for wanting to be prepared to FIRE...I am 90% sure that I would not be able to get employment (too skilled, too high of a pay history, over-qualified....read all of those 'just plain old'). Doesn't matter if I'm willing to do a lesser skilled and/or lower paid job. In today's world economy I don't know if I would retire as early as I want, just so I could keep a foot in the game, but if I ever get shoved, I feel I will probably be done/FIREd. I'm FI at a modest level now but want a little more sweetener (not to mention a little economic stability in the world) before I RE.

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I had the same experience during the recession of the 1980's. Couldn't find a job in my field because there were nearly none to be had, and couldn't get hired for low paying stop-gap jobs, I assume because with a college degree I was "over qualified" for them. I don't know how much it really has to do with age. I was only in my late 20's at that time. ISTM that in those cases the employer is just looking for some plausible reason to give that you didn't get the job.

If I get laid off (which I hope I don't), I think I would attempt almost any amount of belt-tightening, and maybe attempt a home-based business, although I have already failed once at that, in preference to going through that frustration again. It took me about four years to get hired on a decent job and I've never worked in my original profession since then. It would be a hard row to hoe any way you look at it.
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Old 03-08-2009, 05:01 PM   #38
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1. Totally agree with Oldbabe and others that ageism is alive, well, and evil. I can say this because I've experience it at both ends of the spectrum - "the guys won't take orders from a pretty young gal" many years ago, and lately, the dreaded "You're Overqualified."

2. That being said, what is wrong with this advice? It's all about putting your best foot forward. His advice is for them to drink some coffee before the interview, lose 20 pounds and convince the 20-something HR person that they are up-to-date, energetic, and can keep up with said 20-something co-workers. I bet a dragged-out-looking 25-year-old wouldn't have as good a chance as a bright-eyed one.

3. Everybody, sad to say, has to suck up to somebody. It may be most prevalent in the workplace, but I suspect even ER's are not immune. Sucking up was one of the hardest, yet most essential job skills I ever had to learn. In fact, I'm still deficient at it, but I accept that as my own deficient adaptation to the work environment. I've sure seen sucking up work wonders for others.

Just my $.02 - outlier opinion, per usual
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Old 03-08-2009, 05:46 PM   #39
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Sucking up was one of the hardest, yet most essential job skills I ever had to learn. In fact, I'm still deficient at it, but I accept that as my own deficient adaptation to the work environment. I've sure seen sucking up work wonders for others.
I've never been a good suck up, but fortunately in a 22-year professional career (knock on wood), I've never been laid off yet.

As a systems analyst today I think one of the most valuable skills I've developed was the ability to both understand the technology AND report to management and company executives in language they can understand. Which in turn helps said managers look like they get the technology, too.
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Old 03-08-2009, 08:22 PM   #40
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As a systems analyst today I think one of the most valuable skills I've developed was the ability to both understand the technology AND report to management and company executives in language they can understand.
You mean in crayon?
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