Uninsured motorist insurance

[East Texas]

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Originally Posted by justplainbll Perhaps auto insurance coverage features are subject to State regulation and as such there is no pat answer for the residents of all of the ¿57? states of the U.S??

You're right - there is state regulation on insurance. However, with few exceptions, the larger insurance companies have what is considered a "nationwide" policy (not to be confused with the company Nationwide). The policies are pretty much identical from one company to another. There are a few endorsements that could be different. The main difference is pricing the product as well as the endorsement (such as safe driver, etc).

[East Texas]

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Originally Posted by modhatter I am unclear what you are referring to with the relationship between UUI and the Umbrella policy. I did not think I was required to carry UUI in order to obtain the umbrella policy. Also, I don't know what MedPay is. Have not heard the term before. Just researched it. It is what I refer to as PIP (no fault insurance)

Let’s split this into two pieces. Third party coverage and first party coverage just to keep things simple. I’m sure most of you know these things - some of you need to be baselined.

The third party coverage is for other people and property to which you cause harm or damage. It was your fault. Third party coverage is your Bodily Injury and Property Damage coverages on your auto policy and the liability portion of your homeowner’s policy and boat policy. The Umbrella policy kicks in as “extra” over your auto policy and also provides you with some coverages such, as libel and slander, which are not a part of the underlying policy. We normally think of the Umbrella in that light - it protects our financial well-being in case we’re sued. As I said earlier, we’re in such a litigious society that you want your insurance company between you and the rest of the world.

The first party coverage is the focus of your concern - what do you have to have and why do you have to have it. First party coverages are comprehensive and collision to repair your car, Medical Payments, Personal Injury Protection, Uninsured Motorist, Uninsured Motorist Property Damage, Underinsured Motorist, and Underinsured Motorist Property Damage. The only coverages you MUST have are comp and collision if you have a leinholder on the car. Everything else is optional. Your Umbrella policy does not mandate you have first party liability coverages.

That’s why I asked you what was more important: premiums or coverage. You’re already hearing stories of people who looked to their own insurance for coverage when the other at-fault party either didn’t have insurance or enough insurance. You can tweak this a couple of ways. You and your family have health insurance and that’s an important part of this equation. I also have health insurance and carry $100,000 worth of MedPay and $100,000 worth of PIP (both are a “per person”) on my auto insurance because the premium is so darn inexpensive. Plus, MedPay and PIP are no-fault coverages - it doesn’t make any difference who caused the accident. In my situation, I may not be in an area where I have doctors or medical facilities that are a part of my medical plan or not every expense will be covered under that medical plan.

The Umbrella policy also sits on top of your Uninsured / Underinsured Motorist coverage if you are carrying the minimum coverage required by your umbrella. Let’s say you are involved in a not-at-fault catastrophic accident (multi-cars, horrific injuries). Then you find out there is just not enough coverage on the at-fault driver’s policy to take care of all the injuries and all property damage. You want as much coverage as possible - and as seamless as possible - to get you back in your pre-accident position.

My personal position is I’m confident if we’re involved in a not-at-fault accident there is a 99.9% chance other person will be uninsured or underinsured. This is why I carry the maximum limits on MedPay and PIP (very inexpensive for us) as well as $1mil on UM/UIM (probably an overkill - just not taking the chance).

Get quotes from your insurance agent on the highest limits of MedPay and PIP. $10,000 in coverage just doesn’t cut it.

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Originally Posted by modhatter Also, that was a typo on truck. It is a 2002. Was wondering why you all were saying it was sooooooo old. I know it's almost 10 yrs. old, but didn't think that was really old, old old.

I have a 1996 Land Cruiser and I still keep collision on it because the book value is pretty decent. And I must admit I have an emotional attachment to it. I’ll probably wind up dropping collision in another year or so. You need to understand that what you see in Kelly Blue Book is not the number the insurance company will pay you for in case of a complete loss. At least the KBB is a guideline to tell you when to drop collision. Do not…. Do not…. Do not… drop comprehensive. You shouldn’t have a deductible higher than about $200 because the cost savings just isn’t there to go to higher deductibles (get quotes for several deductibles to see where your break-even point is).

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Originally Posted by modhatter So, back to my original question. If my son has a health insurance policy with no deductibles to speak of, and I have medicare. If he were to get into an accident with another vehicle that did not carry insurance or only the very minimum. Other than being paid for pain and suffering, how could he be financially damaged? Is it just a question of not trusting your health insurance company to cover all your medical costs?

He could be financially damaged. And that’s the risk you need to analyze. What if he’s out of network with the doctor and medical facility? What happens to the unreimbursable charges? What if he needs rehab that’s not covered under his health insurance? An ambulance charge, Med Flight charges - ask your health insurance company what percent they reimburse.

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Originally Posted by modhatter In fact to take it one step further. If we were to get into an accident that was our fault, where is the medical coverage there? The Bodily Injury Liability coverage is for the other car, not yours. The PIP (no fault insurance) is limited to $10,000. leaving the remaining amount to be paid by your health insurance carrier. What am I missing here guys?

Look at my explanation on First Party coverages. Check on the limits for MedPay.

[73ss454]

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Originally Posted by modhatter No, you wouldn't be. Not for medical, unless it was the other persons fault (which could be proved) and the other person had adequate insurance to cover you. Here in Florida for example, they only require a minimum policy of 10,000 per person $20,000 per occurrence. So if they only had the minimum or no insurance, you would only receive a max of $10,000 from your own mandatory PIP coverage. This all varies by states (the amounts) But the long and short of it is. If you did not purchase the UIM insurance, you would not have any coverage for your medical costs, unless the other vehicle was at fault and had adequate insurance. I understand that what we call PIP here, is called MedPay in other states. But at any rate you could also purchase that with your policy for some personal coverage for medical expenses. I think after some extended reading today that the reason my UIM insurance is so high here in Florida is because of the fact that we have one of the lowest mandatory coverage requirements in the country. Consequently, there is a much larger percentage of people out there with this minimum coverage or just slightly above it. Many people without a lot of assets only buy what is minimally required, which effects the rates for everybody else.

We are also in Florida and I will have to call our health ins carrier to see what they say. I can't understand how they could refuse me coverage if we are injured and have coverage via our health ins.. This should be interesting to find out what they say.

I canceled my UIM 5 years ago when we moved here. Geico said it covered us for loss of income, which we have none and a small amount toward medical, which we have. I just didn't see any reason to keep it.

[East Texas]

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Originally Posted by 73ss454 We are also in Florida and I will have to call our health ins carrier to see what they say. I can't understand how they could refuse me coverage if we are injured and have coverage via our health ins.. This should be interesting to find out what they say. I canceled my UIM 5 years ago when we moved here. Geico said it covered us for loss of income, which we have none and a small amount toward medical, which we have. I just didn't see any reason to keep it.

It's not that your health insurance company would refuse you coverage - you want to try to minimize your out of pocket expenses. With your health insurance, you have to be in network and you have deductibles and co-pays.

There always seems to be one point of confusion on health insurance versus coverage under an auto policy. You can't "double collect". If health insurance pays and you get a settlement from the auto insurance, you have to reimburse your health insurance company for all their expenses up to the settlement amount. I'm just tossing that in for your discussion with your health insurance carrier.

I am curious, so please post back, as to how much your health insurance carrier covers for ambulance and MedFlights (I think both are always out of network).

[73ss454]

I will post back once I get in touch with my Medical carrier, most likely on Tuesday. I'm also interested to see what they have to say. I'm not too worried about $20 co-pays if that's all I have to pay.

I did try to minimize my out of pocket expenses by getting rid of UIM.

[tightasadrum]

East Texas, that was a very good summary of the whole insurance picture. Thanks.

[eytonxav]

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Originally Posted by justplainbll Perhaps driving a 2 to 3 ton vehicle with adequate air bag protection is a viable alternative?

My son was in a 2005 Honda Civic and was hit by a Camry. When getting hit broadside by any car going 80+ MPH there are no viable alternatives. The firemen who cut him out of the car said it was a miracle he survived. I am a big believer in Honda's after that experience. We put him in a Honda Ridgeline after he recovered.

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Originally Posted by 73ss454 I'm confused, if you have car ins.would'nt you be covered? if I had a car accident with no UIM my regular car ins. Would cover me and since I have medical coverage it would cover anything my car ins didn't.

Medical coverage under most auto policies is not high enough if you are in a catostrophic accident and yes he was also covered by my health policy, but my employer's health insurance wanted to recover what they paid out from the auto insurance (I was able to negotiate that amount down). Also, medical coverage does not address pain, suffering, disfigurement, disability and other consequential damages, so if you get hit by someone who is under or not insured (with no assets), you are at risk.

[meierlde]

Note that I was told that PIP by including disabilty payments in Tx is not needed if you are retired, since you are not working, thus can not recover on that, so for a retired person medical payments is all that is needed.

Further regarding disability, if you have a regular disability policy, that should cover not being able to work, and if one is working one should have such a policy, because there are other accidents than motor vehicles that one can have let alone talking about sickness.

[East Texas]

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Originally Posted by meierlde Note that I was told that PIP by including disabilty payments in Tx is not needed if you are retired, since you are not working, thus can not recover on that, so for a retired person medical payments is all that is needed. Further regarding disability, if you have a regular disability policy, that should cover not being able to work, and if one is working one should have such a policy, because there are other accidents than motor vehicles that one can have let alone talking about sickness.

That's true in a literal sense. However, PIP also includes coverage for essential services such as housekeeping, yard work... things you can't do as a result of the accident. It also includes medical payment coverage that can be stacked on top of MedPay.

[Buckeye]

East Texas - The Med Pay coverage for my policy from USAA in FL is half the cost for the same amount of UMBI coverage. Also, the UMBI is 100,000/200,000 (for ex.) but the Med Pay is 100,000 per person. I'm assuming that means I could have 4 people in the car and possibly have a claim totally up to $400,000 against the UMBI for a single accident.

Med Pay coverage also seems more accessible than UMBI in that it is available immediately to me and my passengers instead of having to struggle with the at-fault party's insurance company until their coverage limit is exceeded.

Med Pay seems to be a much better option than the UMBI for both accessibility and cost but coverages are priced the way they are for a reason. What am I missing?

[East Texas]

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Originally Posted by Buckeye East Texas - The Med Pay coverage for my policy from USAA in FL is half the cost for the same amount of UMBI coverage. Also, the UMBI is 100,000/200,000 (for ex.) but the Med Pay is 100,000 per person. I'm assuming that means I could have 4 people in the car and possibly have a claim totally up to $400,000 against the UMBI for a single accident. Med Pay coverage also seems more accessible than UMBI in that it is available immediately to me and my passengers instead of having to struggle with the at-fault party's insurance company until their coverage limit is exceeded. Med Pay seems to be a much better option than the UMBI for both accessibility and cost but coverages are priced the way they are for a reason. What am I missing?

You're not missing a thing and it's commmendable you know and understand your coverages. MP is on a per person basis and is a "no fault" coverage which means the occupants of your car can collect under your MP regardless of fault. It's not limited to family members. PIP is also no-fault and on a per-person basis. I carry both MP and PIP because they are stackable.

Maybe USAA is the only company who offers $100k on both MP and PIP. We live in rural Texas and pay about $7 per car per six months for $100K MP. I'm doing the PIP from memory - I think we're paying around double that amount for $100k in PIP. It's well worth the piece of mind.

On a slightly different topic, since we live in a rural area we have a membership in the AirLife MedEvac out of Shreveport - it's the air ambulance that's called about 90% of the time for this area. An AirLife ride costs several thousand dollars and having a membership in one means they'll accept whatever payment the insurance company gives them and then write off the rest. It's a finger-crossing kind of thing - in case we need AirEvaced for a medical reason, I want this company to be called so I've registered our membership with the two ambulance companies in this area.

This is another reason I want to have enough coverage under MY policy so any accident becomes as hassle-free as possible. If we need to be AirEvaced from a car wreck, then the costs would be covered under the car insurance. If we need to be AirEvaced for a medical reason, I want to be able to use the company in which we have membership.

As with insurance, it's all about the risk. We'd rather have the coverage and membership and not need it than need it and not have it.

[scrabbler1]

Late to the dance here, but East Texas has very well answered the OP's and others' questions. I worked in the personal auto area of an actuarial department for 23 years but have little to add.

As one poster mentioned, the UIM rates can be high if a state's FR (minimum level of financial responsibility) is low, such as Florida's. Whenever we had to price the rate effects of a law change which included, for example, a tougher mandatory insurance law, the UM rates went down but the UIM rates always went up (but not by as much). UIMBI is a tricky coverage whose provisions vary by state. I forget Florida's state rules, as I have not worked at my old place in 3 years (YAY, but sorry). Florida did have a very unique set of rules which put it in a class of its own, unlike any other state's.

Med Pay is always an optional coverage, even in a state where PIP (no-fault) is not available. From my working days, Florida was one of the few state in which re reviewed Med Pay and PIP every year because Med Pay was often purchased in lieu of higher limits of PIP (probably because higher limits of PIP were not available or inadequate to meet the needs of the policyholders).

UMBI (also UIMBI, UMPD, and UIMPD) only pays if the other dirver is at fault. Med Pay and PIP pay no matter who is at fault. [Florida did not allow the sale of UMPD or UIMPD as I recall from my working days.]

[East Texas]

There are some comments that always make my head do a 360... the following diatribe is not directed at any particular person. I am curious as to how many of you will contact your insurance company after you read this just to go over your coverages. The "you" is not to be taken personally.

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I have full coverage on my car.

I don't know what that means. Oh, I know what you think it means. You think if you have an accident you're fully covered for all accident costs (to you and the other people) and for replacement of your car. That's not going to happen and, unfortunately, the time you finally find out it's after you have a loss.

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I have the coverage the state requires.

This is right up there with Name Your Price.

Thanks. I feel better.

I guess some explanation would be in order. There is no such thing as "full coverage" in the sense that you're 100% insured for each and every situation. You probably have the minimum of each coverage limit the company offers as well as comp and collision for your car if you have a leinholder. You might have gone with a high deductible on comp and collision (if your leinholder let you) without any thought as to how little you're saving on premium to double your deductible. If you take out a loan for a new car - get GAP insurance. If the car is totaled, insurance plus the GAP insurance will pay off the loan. This is important because you're probably upside-down on the note.


Here are some questions to ask your insurance agent (or some of you can get online and do quotes on your insurance company's website).

1. What limits do I have for Bodily Injury and how much am I paying for it? How much would it cost to go to a higher coverage amount? You should have at least $300,000 per person and $500,000 per accident. Most of the premium for liability is with the lower limits. Once you start getting higher limits you can double your coverage for just a few dollars. Bodily Injury is for the other people you injure in an accident that you caused. I personally think if you can go to $1mil on your auto insurance you should do so. You would be surprised in how little premium increase there is to go to that limit. If you hit two or three cars, a school bus, the minivan with a family of eight, you'll go through that coverage quickly. The objective is to have enough coverage to take care of their injuries and their property damage without any out of pocket costs to you. More on that in a bit.
2. Property Damage. This coverage is for other people's property you damage. You should carry the absolute highest amount your company offers. $25k won't be enough for that new Mercedes you just hit.

Those coverages protect you in case you caused the accident. I cannot be emphatic enough on this next statement - STATE MINIMUM IS TOO LOW!


Comprehensive and Collision are for your car. You don't have to have those coverages unless you have a leinholder. You need to carry comp regardless because it gives you a lot of protection for little premium.

1. Comp deductibles should be pretty low - around $200. Get a quote for all levels of deductibles and see why you should not be carrying a $500 or $1,000 deductible on your comprehensive coverage. This coverage is for vandalism and things that happen to the car when it's not moving (oversimplification - but, it works).
2. Collision fixed your car when you hit something. You can go to higher deductibles here if you can afford it; but, stay under $1,000 unless you have a really expensive to insure car. Again, get quotes from your insurance agent on the various levels of deductibles.

The other coverages (Uninsured/Underinsured Motorist, MedPay, PIP, Comp, and Collision) are completely optional - although you may have to sign a waiver not to have some of the coverages. This is where you can save premium if you are in desperate need of saving money. The caveat is you're taking a risk that you won't be in an accident that would cost you any money out of pocket. See my other post on this topic. If I had to pick one coverage to have, that would be $100,000 MedPay.

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You can't get blood out of a turnip.

So you're carrying the minimum liability for the state just because you believe if you cause an accident, and you get sued, you have nothing to lose. Judgments can last for decades. Leins can be put on your house. Your checking and savings accounts can be grabbed. If you die and the judgment is still in place, then your estate must settle it before any distributions can be made.

Some of you are shrugging your shoulders at this with a "so what?". Let's flip the scenario. You were severely injured in an accident that was clearly the other person's fault who doesn't have insurance. Do you think it's right for you to get deeply in debt because the other driver didn't do the right thing and have the right amount of coverages?

This is where you find out that you don't have "full coverage" and for just a few dollars you could have had pretty high limits in MedPay and PIP and that UM/UIM could have also helped you out.

I am a proponent of having an Umbrella policy. If I had to chose between having $1mil on my auto and a $1mil Umbrella, I'll take the $1mil on the auto coverage because it's just not that expensive.

[scrabbler1]

[QUOTE=East Texas;1146077]The other coverages (Uninsured/Underinsured Motorist, MedPay, PIP, Comp, and Collision) are completely optional - although you may have to sign a waiver not to have some of the coverages. [QUOTE]

Not exactly. In the relatively few states which offer PIP, that coverage is usually mandatory. Like the always optional Med Pay, there is a basic limit and (in most states) optional higher limits. PIP varies a lot by state, as some states have coverage components besides the usual Medical benefits which include wage loss, essential services, funeral benefits, and survivor benefits. Sometimes, the basic required package includes one or more of these lesser components, sometimes they do not.

Uninsured/Underinsured Motorist coverage is mandatory in some states but optional in others. Sometimes these two coverages are sold together as a combined unit, sometimes not. Sometimes, the PD component of UM (even UIM) is mandatory, sometimes optional, sometimes not available at all. Sometimes, UMPD can be sold only to those who have not bought Collision, as those coverages are somewhat similar.

Comp and Collision are always optional (unless there is a bank loan for the car), as is Med Pay.

While I agree that the state minumums (FR limits) are too low, even in some states (i.e. Alaska and Maine) which have high FRs, I do not necessarily agree that you should buy the highest limits available. BI Limits such as 100/300 and 250/500 are reasonably high enough as are PD limits of $50k. If you buy Umbrella, however, you do need to have a certain minimum limit for BI at which point the PU begins.

For Comp deductibles, you can usually buy a Full Coverage Glass no matter what deductible you have for the other causes of loss (besides Collision). I have always thought that the small extra charge for the FC Glass was worthwhile because Glass tends to be a high-frequency, low-cost loss compared to the other causes of loss.

[East Texas]

This is fun... I feel like I finally have my own personal Actuary!

For me to go from 300/500/25 to 1mil/1mil/100 was only about $10 per car every six months. What I don't get - and this is where having my very own personal actuary is handy - why collision keeps going up on my 1996 Land Cruiser. I've had about a 20% increase the past few policy periods. That's each period, not cumulative. Is there an increased possibility a gopher is going to steal tires or a feral hog hotwire the car? (I can hear the comments now from my friends west of here....)

Maybe it's an incentive for me to drop collision and put UMPD on my UM/UIM coverage.

[Nords]

OK, let me jump in with questions.

Our two Priuses (2005 & 2006) are probably worth about $15K each. We don't carry comprehensive or collision insurance because we'd rather carry the risk of replacing them. We'd certainly keep driving them if they were damaged or vandalized yet still safe to drive. We don't carry towing or roadside assistance or rental coverage either, because we retirees barely drive 3000 miles/year on a 30x40-mile island.

We carry Bodily Injury insurance for $500K/person and $1M/accident. Property damage $100K. We have umbrella liability above that which exceeds our gross worth.

We carry the state's minimum PIP (I think it's $10K) with a $1000 deductible.

UM is "stacked" at bodily injury of $500K/person and $1M/accident. UIM is the same numbers.

It's been nearly 15 years since we had the conversation with a retired Navy officer & new law student, but his point about UM/UIM was that my spouse and I were covered by the military's Tricare. However if our daughter got T-boned in an accident, she might need lifetime care that would be subsidized by UM/UIM.

In a few years our daughter will finish college and be out on her own insurance policy. At that point we'd be tempted to drop the UM & UIM. Of course together they make up only $110 of our total $452 six-month premium. Not that much of a financial burden, as long as we're not ignorantly throwing away the money.

What else are we blissfully ignorant about? (I mean in the context of vehicle/liability insurance...)

[scrabbler1]

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Originally Posted by Nords What else are we blissfully ignorant about? (I mean in the context of vehicle/liability insurance...)

You can elect to buy lower limits of UM and UIM than your BI liability limits (as long as they are at least the state's minimum FR limit, assuming UM and/or UIM are mandatory). For example, on my own car, I have 250/500 BI but have only 50/100 UM/UIM BI. This will save you some money while retaining some protection from those 2 coverages.

When you say "stacked" UM and UIM are you referring to the optional stacking of UM and UIM limits for multi-car policies? That is, if you have bought 250/500 for 2 cars you are actually buying 500/1000 for each car because the limits from one car can be added to, or "stacked," from one car onto the other one? In that case, the rate will be higher but you can drop the limits to give yourself equivalent (to BI) coverage for each car.

Comprehensive is usually much cheaper than Collision, so you might want to keep Comp on your policy longer than Collision. You are free to drop one while keeping the other, as I did with my previous car from 1999 through 2007, when I traded it for my current car. Comp provided me coverage for annoying but more likely glass losses as well as unforeseen events such as theft, fire, wind, and water. Your cars may be a bit too new and valuable to drop Collision (maybe wait another year or two) but that is a judgment call.

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by scrabbler1 You can elect to buy lower limits of UM and UIM than your BI liability limits (as long as they are at least the state's minimum FR limit, assuming UM and/or UIM are mandatory). For example, on my own car, I have 250/500 BI but have only 50/100 UM/UIM BI. This will save you some money while retaining some protection from those 2 coverages. When you say "stacked" UM and UIM are you referring to the optional stacking of UM and UIM limits for multi-car policies? That is, if you have bought 250/500 for 2 cars you are actually buying 500/1000 for each car because the limits from one car can be added to, or "stacked," from one car onto the other one? In that case, the rate will be higher but you can drop the limits to give yourself equivalent (to BI) coverage for each car. Comprehensive is usually much cheaper than Collision, so you might want to keep Comp on your policy longer than Collision. You are free to drop one while keeping the other, as I did with my previous car from 1999 through 2007, when I traded it for my current car. Comp provided me coverage for annoying but more likely glass losses as well as unforeseen events such as theft, fire, wind, and water. Your cars may be a bit too new and valuable to drop Collision (maybe wait another year or two) but that is a judgment call.

I think that's what it means, and the word "stacked" on my policy next to the $500K/$1M numbers means that it might actually be as high as $1M/$2M.

I need to parse read my policy and maybe make a few phone calls. The "stacking" concept confuses the heck outta me.

USAA's so inexpensive compared to the others that we tend to not comparison shop unless the rates really jump up.

[East Texas]

Scrabbler - not every state allows stacking UM/UIM and I have no idea if Hawaii is one of those states.

Nords, logon to USAA, go to the area where you can change auto coverages, and see if you can get $100k MedPay - and the premium. Wander back this way when you have the answer (I'm assuming you do not currently have that limit in MedPay).

ETA: Nords, just out of curiousity, see what the difference is in premium for you to go from your current Bodily Injury coverage to $1mil while you're on the website.

[grasshopper]

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Originally Posted by cscott711 I don't know enough to tell you what is high or not, but I do know that I shop my insurance rates every year through my Hub International broker. However, I've been with Citizens for my auto and home insurance for the last few years as they have consistently been the best deal for comparable coverage through other providers. About eight years ago prior to knowing much about insurance rates at all, I was paying around $1,400 every six months for my 2001 Dodge Ram 4x4. I quickly got sick of that and shopped around and cut my cost in half by switching from Progressive to AAA. Then, a couple years or so later I shopped around and found Citizens through Hub International. I'm down to around $100 a month for my 2006 Dodge Ram 4x4 now. Five years newer vehicle and still a lower cost. The amount of variance between insurance companies is amazing to me.

I pay $97 a year on my 1995 Dodge Ram 4X4 with Progressive. Whats your credit score?


Living 30 miles from the Mexican border, requires a zillion dollar UIM limit. And like East Texas a Med-i-vac subscription, for those pesky rattlesnake bites.