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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-11-2005, 08:04 PM   #21
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Well, we used to King of England's Ass over here, and that is the way the world worked then. There are those that accept the status quo and those of us who don't.

I would have thought you were one of the later!
I am no Don Quixote. I only fight battles I think I can win. The status quo looks pretty tough to me. Anyway, getting back to those nasty
execs and their ill gotten gains. It's a dog-eat-dog world and that
ain't no lie! Maybe they did something immoral, illegal or fattening
and maybe they didn't. Anyway, they have got the money and
the pension recipients are getting screwed. Seems like business
as usual to me.

JG
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-11-2005, 08:20 PM   #22
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

There's a moral here for those about to retire.*

When these situations are reported in the media, my FIL is heartily glad he took his pension as a lump sum.* CBS offered plenty of other options but a lump sum was about the only one they couldn't somehow bail out of.

This type of "pension insurance" might even be worth paying $$ to financial advisors if you're not interested in managing your own money.
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-11-2005, 08:39 PM   #23
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I can't understand why we don't go after the executives that plundered the assets of the company. They are sitting in their Florida Mansions with 10's of Millions in their Bank Accounts!
Exactly. The thought progression of several people seems to be:

1) there's not enough money for the airline to be profitable today.

So 2) the union workers should be screwed out of their pension.

Seems like there might be some other options.
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-11-2005, 08:43 PM   #24
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

Until a crowd gathers that the talking heads can interview and make a 'newsable event" - ?

Not much happened 4 *to 5 years ago when crusty old troublemakers(Buffett and Bogle to name a few) - pointed out that underfunding pensions via upping the 'allowed' projected return probably wasn't a good idea and the handholding between the SEC, 'independant accountants', boards of directors of companies - was feel good in the face of reality. Even better was taking 'excess returns' from the pension 'trust' during the good times to boost earnings. Defined pensions are supposed to have money in trust - ?

I'm grossly oversimplifying here.

The other turd in the punchbowl - is the health coverage portion. The SO has a very small cola union pension(UAW negotiated) with health coverage(deductibles).

Troubled industries will make the radar first - expect more fun to come.

Meanwhile - ask a Korean War vet about his health coverage.
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-11-2005, 08:58 PM   #25
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

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The other turd in the punchbowl
Thanks a lot, Unclemick, I'll be carrying that image around in my brain for a while!!
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-11-2005, 09:05 PM   #26
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

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Originally Posted by unclemick2
The other turd in the punchbowl ....
Finally someone who can discourse at my level.*

Mikey
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-12-2005, 04:53 AM   #27
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

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Originally Posted by oldbykur
blame the Republicans for every evil known to mankind, including athletes foot!
ok ok, they did it!
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-12-2005, 07:37 AM   #28
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

The takeaway is that you cannot count on corporations or the government for pensions or social security. You must take charge of your retirement or your career. Do not be blind and loyal to any organization. Business executives are only looking for their own interests. Politicians are only concerned getting re-relected. Is that it?
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-12-2005, 07:56 AM   #29
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky
The takeaway is that you cannot count on corporations or the government for pensions or social security. You must take charge of your retirement or your career. Do not be blind and loyal to any organization. Business executives are only looking for their own* interests. Politicians are only concerned getting re-relected. Is that it?
In God we trust. All others are suspect

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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-12-2005, 08:53 AM   #30
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

One takeaway is, retirement as we know it, is going the way of the "dodo bird".

BTW: I have read somewhere that retirement as we know it now is a fairly new invention, probably since FDR. During most of history, people worked until they died or were unable to work anymore. Retirement industry was started to get the old pharts out and give the young workers a shot. Since demographics indicate there's going to be a lot more wizened citizens, maybe the reverse is inevitable.

Another takeaway is cavet emptor. Save your money, LBYM, and provide for your own retirement. This is not a good thing for United Airline workers. But, it is a wakeup for those still working who have enough time to save, save, and save some more.
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-12-2005, 12:29 PM   #31
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

I figure I best say something before people start asking "where's
Charlie?"

I learned in '69 when TI had it's first layoff (I was a very young
manager at the time) that you had to look out for yourself. Bought
a laundromat and started plodding toward ER. In '89 they offered
an ER package and I took it at age 55 in a flash.

There was no question in my mind about taking the lump sum vs.
pension ..... no way was I going to depend on the company
lasting for another 30-40 years.

I truly feel sorry for those loosing pension benefits but it is
ridiculous to blame it on high salaries of the executives although
they are grossly overpaid. I can remember the time when auto
workers were making much more than the average hourly
worker and airline pilots were getting rich by most standards.

Poor business decisions including pandering to overdemanding
labor unions was/is the root of many companies problems.

That and the fact that we almost had a free ride after WWII until
the rest of the world re-tooled with modern equipment and
began to hand us our head on a plate.

That's my 2 cents .....

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation
Old 05-12-2005, 12:44 PM   #32
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Re: United Airlines trying to dump pension obligation

A few notes...

First of all, you can't tar all execs with the same brush. Some of them have to screw their pants on, true, but others are just playing by the rules...and if the rules don't take adequate care of the "little guy," the difference between a good exec and a good human being is that the good human being makes up the difference.

Another thing about execs...say an executive has a deferred comp plan and the company goes bankrupt. In the eyes of the bankruptcy judge he's just another creditor like pension plan recipients. That is, assuming the executive hasn't required some kind of surety in his package. So is he the criminal or the victim?

Now, these pension plans that are going to the PBGC...they're insured, just not on a one-for-one basis. Pensioners are collecting below par. It's like the FDIC insuring your deposit account for up to $100K. If you have more than that, kiss it goodbye if your bank goes gut-up.

Incidentally, PBGC payouts are not funded by taxpayers. They're funded by premiums from covered plans that are still solvent.

And on that note, I'm knocking off to go fishing.

Ed
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