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View Poll Results: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Very UnHappy - Want To Shoot Everyone Involved Out Of Cannon 37 44.05%
UnHappy 15 17.86%
Not Sure 5 5.95%
Don't Care 5 5.95%
It's A Good Thing 16 19.05%
Shouldn't Happen - But Doesn't Really Bother Me 6 7.14%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 05:40 AM   #21
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTien
My phone company - Qwest - didn't turn over call records because they felt it would violate federal privacy laws and there was no warrant - so I don't have to worry about that call I made last year.
I didn't participate because I couldn't match my point of view with the offerings. The database shouldn't be but doesn't really bother me.

I think that at some time we will start hearing a lot of campaign talking points about who has been in contact with whom and how many times that contact took place.

I think that, if the database produces a result, the further investigation of that result should go through the FISA court for vetting.

How good do you think the (non) data mining technology actually is?
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 08:33 AM   #22
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

I'd like another voting option

"I'm pissed and I'd like to shoot everyone involved out of a cannon, or with a cannon".

Constitution crapping, civil rights ripping pieces of crap.

I love listening to the hoo-hah too. "But this makes us safer and helps us find the terrorists"...uhh, opinion and the correct answer is probably no, and no. "We're not spying on innocent people"...yep, yes you are, until a court of law determines otherwise. "If you're against this plan, you're helping the terrorists"...no, YOU'RE helping the terrorists by spending a trillion dollars on worthless or ineffective programs, slashing core civil rights, and breaking the law.

They dont have to do anything to us anymore...we'll gladly take the toll on ourselves psychologically and financially.

Dont get me wrong...i'm all for organized and comprehensive approaches to defeat terrorism. What i'm mortally concerned about is the demographic compilations and "six degrees of kevin bacon" crap thats going to result. I call a guy who calls a guy who calls a guy. Further correlations of books loaned, movies watched and supermarket items purchased (all of which actually were made by someone else but by computer glitch are associated with me), coupled with large cash purchases of homes and cars...and I trigger some threshold that lets some MF'er tap my phones and read my email.

I dont THINK so.
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 08:41 AM   #23
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Wonder If the FBI spies on the CIA....and the CIA on the FBI...that would seem reasonable...then they would know what the other is doing

Not worried about the CIA & FBI - it's the IRS that gives me the willies...

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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 09:17 AM   #24
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Sure...didnt the FBI just arrest the CIA's #3 guy?
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 09:21 AM   #25
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

So, what's the plan? Where do we go from here?
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 09:35 AM   #26
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 10:01 AM   #27
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

"They" hate freedom. We know this is true because we have been told so.

The other "they" are stealing Constitutional rights and freedoms to defeat the first "them".

Who is pulling whose strings?

Who has already lost?
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 10:47 AM   #28
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmb
On a more personal note, I didn't risk my ass for five long years to protect a police state.
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Brave statement, and I admire that perspective. Gotta remember what you are fighting for.

Labelling the antiterror effort as a "war" is fine with me. But that doesn't automatically mean suspending our American rights through secretive, nonselective, and possibly unconstitutional warrantless actions.

God bless America. Liberal or conservative, let's make sure we remember what we stand for.
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 01:58 PM   #29
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

People get your priorities straight. This did not involve oral sex. (although alot of phone sex may come to light).
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 03:28 PM   #30
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

I really don't think that Al Qaeda has to worry.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Goss1.wmv

The US citizens that have to worry with the phone tracking are those sources that call to the NYTimes and the Washington Post with honest concerns about what is transpiring in front of them.

I totally agree with gmb above.*

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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-13-2006, 05:06 PM   #31
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Brave statement, and I admire that perspective. Gotta remember what you are fighting for.

Labelling the antiterror effort as a "war" is fine with me. But that doesn't automatically mean suspending our American rights through secretive, nonselective, and possibly unconstitutional warrantless actions.

God bless America. Liberal or conservative, let's make sure we remember what we stand for.
Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner.

A real leader would have said that we will not let these attacks change our way of life or force us to take short cuts with our civil liberties and our system of laws. We cannot allow ourselves to become terrorized by the terrorists and do their work for them.
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 12:27 AM   #32
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 12:46 AM   #33
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

First of all the Fed's aren't looking at all of the phone calls leaving the country. *They are spending their limited resources on the most promising people. *How do they know they are the most promising? *They conduct interrogations, investigations, observations, and use just plain common sense. *If you consider Sami Al Arian, or Osama Bin Laden a good friend then expect to be investigated. *If they were going around like most of you seem to believe, it would be the equivalent of taking all of the covers off the books in your local college library, removing the Dewey Decimal system tags from the end of the shelves and telling you to find a quote out of some book somewhere in the library. *If you even started you would quit after a short period, because it would be too overwhelming.

Collecting intelligence is not science. *It requires best guesses, trusting people you wouldn't let guard the dirt in your gutter, and luck. *Many times it is basically a best guess situation. *Far from probable cause, maybe closer to a sneaking suspicion, which lies somewhere around a gut feeling.

Ladies and gentlemen we are at war. *The enemy is on our shores, just because they are not attacking constantly does not mean they have given up. *Terrorists have this uncanny ability to sit and watch. *When we start to relax they will strike. *It is a very smart way of conducting business, when you are massively out numbered. *Maybe if the military and the intel organizations weren't so good at their respective jobs they would receive a little more support. If they weren't so good we would have bombs blowing up, biological agents released in many of our high value targets, and general mayhem running amuck. *Then maybe the American people would understand that we are at war. *It doesn't matter if you think it's only happening over there the terrorists groups know and believe they can successfully attack over here. *They have done it. *I can think of many ways to attack most of the high profile targets in this country. *Mostly because if you want to stop an attack you have to figure out where a target is vulnerable. *That is what I have been trained to do, stop the attack.
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 01:07 AM   #34
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
First of all the Fed's aren't looking at all of the phone calls leaving the country. They are spending their limited resources on the most promising people. How do they know they are the most promising? They conduct interrogations, investigations, observations, and use just plain common sense. If you consider Sami Al Arian, or Osama Bin Laden a good friend then expect to be investigated. If they were going around like most of you seem to believe, it would be the equivalent of taking all of the covers off the books in your local college library, removing the Dewey Decimal system tags from the end of the shelves and telling you to find a quote out of some book somewhere in the library. If you even started you would quit after a short period, because it would be too overwhelming.
Isn't "If you aren't doing anything wrong, why are you worried?" something from "1984"

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
Collecting intelligence is not science. It requires best guesses, trusting people you wouldn't let guard the dirt in your gutter, and luck. Many times it is basically a best guess situation. Far from probable cause, maybe closer to a sneaking suspicion, which lies somewhere around a gut feeling.
While this is sometimes true with HUMINT, that's hardly the case with COMINT, SIGINT, or IMINT. Maverick cops who play by their own rules makes good prime time t.v., but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
Ladies and gentlemen we are at war. The enemy is on our shores, just because they are not attacking constantly does not mean they have given up. Terrorists have this uncanny ability to sit and watch. When we start to relax they will strike. It is a very smart way of conducting business, when you are massively out numbered. Maybe if the military and the intel organizations weren't so good at their respective jobs they would receive a little more support. If they weren't so good we would have bombs blowing up, biological agents released in many of our high value targets, and general mayhem running amuck. Then maybe the American people would understand that we are at war. It doesn't matter if you think it's only happening over there the terrorists groups know and believe they can successfully attack over here. They have done it. I can think of many ways to attack most of the high profile targets in this country. Mostly because if you want to stop an attack you have to figure out where a target is vulnerable. That is what I have been trained to do, stop the attack.
So that's the part where we cry "uncle" right? We didn't notice we were at war, thanks for pointing that out. Ooops, that means the Constitution, Bill of Rights etc. get used as toilet paper? It's sort of a can't lose John Birch society way of arguing, if we aren't attacked all the intrusive measures are working, if we are attacked again, look, see? We need more intrusive measures! I have a banana in my ear to keep away the elephants. But there aren't any elephants for miles! See? It's working!

Look, I want the troops to have every resource to fight the war, every resource that is legal and constitutional. I see a Federal government taking advantage of fear to increase the power of the Exectuive branch and we should all be alarmed by it. It is our duty, if we do love this country, to question those in power, and work to preserve the delicate balance of powers so masterfully set up by our founding fathers. Let's leave the cult of personalities to soviet era dictatorships.
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 01:27 AM   #35
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

"Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040420-2.html

The argument "if you have nothing to hide, why worry?" depends on the people running the program. Are they people of integrity? Would they abuse data? Would they fabricate stories to invade a country? Would they out a CIA covert operative for political gain?
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 02:12 AM   #36
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

If we are wire tapping only suspected terrorists or their affiliations, why is this wrong?*

First of all, they are NOT CITIZENS of America and therefore do not have the same right to privacy that American citizens do.* If we are at war and they are our enemy, part of our job is gathering intel.* And these sneaky bastards are here right now plotting their next move.* They are no different than spys with intent to harm.* Intent has already been proven by their actions so we have every right to take action, and the situation will dictate that action.

People really need to get over themselves.* The government, in this situation, could care less about most of our dull lives.* They are only going after persons of interest.*

It is our duty and obligation as a nation to defend ourselves against attack from all enemies foriegn and domestic.* It is no different than any other war situation our country has been in.* The big difference is that our enemy is not a country so intel gathering has to change within the abilities and the network of our enemy.* We HAVE to evolve and adapt our policies with that of the ever changing technologys of our enemy.

That being said, if they ever cross the line and attempt to prosecute American citizens for anything other than terrorism related activities, I'll be the first to cry foul.* It would never hold up in court anyway because it violates the rights of the citizen.* BIG difference!!!
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 06:33 AM   #37
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

We have always had threats, foreign and domestic.

What is so appalling about this administration is its decision to disregard the checks and balances in its actions and intelligence gathering.

We have secret courts under FISA. When those courts are in session unauthorized persons can't get on the floor where court is held, into the courtroom, windows blacked out, separate entrances, restricted entry, no public records kept, US Marshall Service on guard, only clerks with security clearance, etc. These courts are secret, but they also have Constitution safeguards.

Our country started out as a rejection of arbitrary governmental authority replaced with a system of checks and balances on the exercise of governmental authority. When the administration seeks to circumvent and ignore those procedures it hurts us to the core, much more that the foreign terrorists.

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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 07:50 AM   #38
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

uncledrz

You are correct.
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 08:06 AM   #39
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Hmmm - first cup of coffee thoughts.

Having held a few security clearances of various types over the years - my tongue in cheek prefers domestic spying over the stinking paperwork.

But having seen the history channel on the McCarty era and Hoover's files kept during the Civil Rights era - I go back and forth.

Security camera's and recording conversation's are standard business practice now a days - litigation protection wise.

And having read my credit report back when I bought a house in 2005 - hmmm.

Being an old defense contractor type employee - maybe we should contract out domestic spying and pay bonus bounty for real live terriosts?

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh - welcome to the modern world.

Spying in all it's forms has been and will be with us - at least in my lifetime.
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Old 05-14-2006, 08:18 AM   #40
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

I guess the good news is the fact terrorists do not read, watch or listen to any or our "scoop" reporting, therefore, they have not been alerted .
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