Join Early Retirement Today
View Poll Results: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Very UnHappy - Want To Shoot Everyone Involved Out Of Cannon 37 44.05%
UnHappy 15 17.86%
Not Sure 5 5.95%
Don't Care 5 5.95%
It's A Good Thing 16 19.05%
Shouldn't Happen - But Doesn't Really Bother Me 6 7.14%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 12:23 PM   #121
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: US Domestic Spying

Well, I'm in favor of protecting civil liberties, too. But, does it really make sense to deny the government information that is freely shared between private companies/anybody else who wants to buy it? What next: The cops can't use the white pages to find a suspect because it is privately collected data?

I'd like to know how all theose charities find me within 2 weeks of a household move. If Unce Sam really wants to know where Usama bib Ladin is, I think they should donate $200 in his name to the Disabed American Vets and enclose a note saying "I'm moving now, please send me more of those return address labels to my new address." Then, just buy DAV's mailing list in three weeks.

__________________

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 12:23 PM   #122
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: US Domestic Spying

Do you get the feeling that there are teams of gov't lawyers studying how to circumvent laws/rules

Although there is small comfort that the Government will never be as smart and clever as the direct marketers in finding me (like the terrorists pre and post 9/11 - this job should be outsourced to the DMs that are so good at tracking me down)
__________________

__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 12:28 PM   #123
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: US Domestic Spying

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Well, I'm in favor of protecting civil liberties, too. But, does it really make sense to deny the government information that is freely shared between private companies/anybody else who wants to buy it? What next: The cops can't use the white pages to find a suspect because it is privately collected data?
Mastercard cant put me in jail as a material witness without charging me, and citibank cant ship me off to guantanamo bay as an enemy combatant without telling anyone where i went, so the answer to your question is "yes, it makes sense to deny them likely bad or incomplete information". At best, they'll waste time following bad leads based on bad information rather than use well established police investigative techniques to find actual criminals. At worst they'll act on the bad leads and information.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 12:38 PM   #124
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Re: US Domestic Spying

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I'd like to know how all theose charities find me within 2 weeks of a household move.
Hey, all those disillusioned career intelligence-collection officers still had to earn money after they quit the CIA...
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 12:39 PM   #125
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: US Domestic Spying

Looks like they got more efficient after they went private!
(NSA readers--just kidding!!)
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 01:59 PM   #126
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: US Domestic Spying

CFB,
-- Given your concerns (improper arrest/denial of rights without due process), would it not be more effective to concentrate on restoring the safegaurds that have traditionally protected against these problems (the normal or FISA warrant process, open trials, etc)? Law enforcement has always had to contend with bad information, and the traditional safeguards do a good job of protecting folks from imprisonment based on a single piece of bad info. Trying to prevent law enforcement from making mistakes by denying them info which they believe will be useful (and which is widely available) is, IMO, not the best way of addressing any of the three challenges we have (preventing terrorism, protecting privacy, protecting the rights of the accused).
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 02:07 PM   #127
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,330
Re: US Domestic Spying

Maybe we need to see a similar thread based on the discovery of FBI files in the Clinton White House. I wonder if the sides would change?

The law that supposedly allows this NSA activity was also passed during the Clinton administration. Does anyone think that it didn't go on then or was it all right then? This has only come to light due to a leak by a disgruntled congressional staffer or a member of congress. Someone committed a felony revealing this.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane -- Marcus Aurelius
2B is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 02:30 PM   #128
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: US Domestic Spying

Sam -

Since the govt appears to have very little interest in the 'traditional protections' and checks/balances, and considers trading my civil rights for weak to non-existent "safety", until the traditional protections/checks/balances are restored, my only option (other than to press for a restoration of proper operation of the three branches of government) is to keep information away from them...in particular...bad information. Which is to say, most of it.

We wont stop terrorism. But we will stop large organized plots. Those involve a lot of people. Theres a money trail. There are actions taken that are noteworthy. Products bought. Training taken.

We had all the info we needed to identify the 9/11 attack before it happened. That we didnt act wasnt due to a lack of data or information, theory and knowledge. It was because it wasnt taken seriously and the people who had the piece parts didnt want to talk to each other.

Pouring phone numbers and call information, library books, medical test records, dental records, and other consumer information into a mass database for perusal solves none of those problems that kept us from stopping 9/11. And all of those problems still exist.

So while I know a lot of people take the attitude that the government can perform daily invasive rectal exams on them if it prevents terrorism, a lot of others know that the actions currently being taken are about as beneficial.

The good news is that we're spending billions of dollars on it, so the terrorists dont need to attack anything. They can sit back and watch cartoons while we hack away at our civil rights, demolish our faith in our government, live in constant fear that is sponsored by our own elected officials, and pour a trillion dollars down the drain.

Nothing at all, short of a successful dirty bomb or nuclear detonation in a major city, could do as much damage as we've done to ourselves within our own borders and between the US and just about every other country in the world. Besides savaging the bill of rights and deeply dividing our people, we've turned what was almost universal sympathy on 9/12 to almost universal distrust and hatred in just a few short years.

And the solution is to cut into our rights and collect more flakey data?

I think not.

2B - I dont care if it was clinton, democrats, bush, republicans, karl rove, the beaver cheese society or little green men. Liberals or conservatives, bible thumpers or gun nuts.

It really makes no difference who started it. Or why.

I used to run into the same thing in business. We'd collect what we knew was faulty data and then try to make business decisions on it. In a lot of cases, all it took was a little intelligence.

How about instead of millions, billions and trillions spent on what we're doing now, we x-ray all airline checked baggage, look in every cargo container that comes into the US, improve our border controls and lock up the sealanes off of our coasts. Dont let people into the country without taking a hard look at them, and find and get them out when their visa's expire. Tear up the homeland security bureaucracy and stop the interdepartmental horseshit once and for all.

You can still run a small boat up to one of our more barren coastlines and unload ten guys and a dirty bomb or a nuke. If you're smart and careful, you can get away with it 90-something percent of the time. Heck, a million tons of drugs get into the country every year and our best efforts havent stopped THAT.

Until we stop those big problems, downloading who I called on the phone doesnt even make the top 100 of the list of good things to do to detect and stop terrorists.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 02:54 PM   #129
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 152
Re: US Domestic Spying

Cute Fuzzy Bunny

You are absolutely correct
__________________
Non sequitur is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 03:07 PM   #130
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: US Domestic Spying

I'd rather be a shitload less right and a shitload less fake-"safe" and have the money we put into the TSA and Homeland Security spent on baggage x-rays, cargo inspections and immigration/visa security...oh yeah and pay the FBI and CIA to "follow the money trail" and "Keep an eye on the usual suspects", just like a decent detective does. Instead, we're proud that we just shook down a grandma in a wheelchair and a US senator at the airport and fighting over whether we can wiretap a "suspected terrorist" and download everyones phone records "but only look at the terrorists".

Last time I checked, a "suspect" wasnt a criminal until charged and convicted and evidence gathered was done so legally and with the oversight of a judge to assure it was legal. We claim we "need speed" to be effective, yet we lack the arabic speaking translators to even translate the information we're gathering in a timely manner.

And the government is sending people around to "educate" local police on how to employ the patriot act principles against ordinary criminals. Hence, i'm not buying the "government good, only looking for terrorists" line.

Makes me wanna puke.

__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 03:18 PM   #131
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 152
Re: US Domestic Spying

I feel the same way.
__________________
Non sequitur is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 03:20 PM   #132
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: US Domestic Spying

No argument here!
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-21-2006, 03:55 PM   #133
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,330
Re: US Domestic Spying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Makes me wanna puke.
Ah CFB, you miss the whole point. The NSA leak is to show how evil GWB is. Not that I won't agree with his critics, I just haven't seen anyone focus on what it will really take to improve our security. Our wonderful congress postures and potificates. They get their sound bites. What I don't see is anyone getting our security improved. Anything suggested by a Repub is racist and erodes civil liberty no mater how irrelevant it is. The Dems propose vague ambiguities without substance.

As usual, we're waiting for the next election and the next and the next.......

I've already puked.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane -- Marcus Aurelius
2B is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-22-2006, 09:41 AM   #134
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: US Domestic Spying

All I can say is that we used to fight an enemy.

That enemy foisted its way of life onto smaller countries by way of force, expanding their evil empire throughout whole regions. They spied on their citizens, recorded their conversations and patterns of behavior, and maintained secret police and jails. Citizens were arrested, whisked off to secret trials or no trials, and imprisoned in undisclosed locations. All supposedly to reduced dissidents and maintain order within the country. People were told what they could and couldnt do, even when those activities were very specific to their personal lives and had no effect on others or the governments smooth operation.

Who's the USSR now...? :P

I just read the at&t documents that were leaked by the whistleblower employee...go read them before they're struck off of the various web sites. Wired.com has a copy as of right now. Pretty chilling stuff.

Then go read the newsblip that Gonzalez thinks anyone, including the media, who whistleblows via use of any confidential information is a criminal and will go to jail.

Its a very slippery slope...we're sliding pretty fast right now.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-22-2006, 02:06 PM   #135
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 927
Re: US Domestic Spying

This just in:

"WASHINGTON - Personal data, including* * *Social Security numbers of 26.5 million U.S. veterans, was stolen from a Veterans Affairs employee this month after he took the information home without authorization, the department said Monday. "


I'd have scathing commentary on this, but being one of the 26.5 million, I'm too busy trying to freeze my credit reports against this breech of my personal information to go on at length.

Suffice it to say that no matter HOW much we trust the government's motives in gathering and storing information, its sheer incompetence should be enough to keep us up nights.

Caroline* *
__________________
Caroline is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-22-2006, 02:09 PM   #136
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,094
Re: US Domestic Spying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
I'd have scathing commentary on this, but being one of the 26.5 million, I'm too busy trying to freeze my credit reports against this breech of my personal information to go on at length.
How do you know your information was stolen, did the VA notify you?

__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-22-2006, 03:02 PM   #137
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 927
Re: US Domestic Spying

Did the VA notify me? Nothing so personal.

I just read an article on the newswire, with a link to instructions on what to do. It could be the case that the thief was just burgling the house and doesn't know what he / she has.

But who wants to take the risk?


__________________
Caroline is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-23-2006, 01:53 PM   #138
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: US Domestic Spying

Remember when just about everybody had a bumper sticker on their car - now a days seems like the ones that do have about 20 - 40.


Well it was one of those cars that had this on it - I Love My Country...I Fear My Government

Made me want to put it on my car and I hate BSs...
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-25-2006, 05:46 PM   #139
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: US Domestic Spying

Now the FBI & Justice and Gonzales have stepped on congress's toes with their raid on Congressman Jefferson's office....understand Hastert says there is a separation of the branches that has to be respected.
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-25-2006, 06:53 PM   #140
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: US Domestic Spying

Yep. Bush has ordered the materials held until someone can figure out that dangnabbed constitution thing. Apparently this hasnt happened in over 200 years and nobody knows what to do.

The good news is that Jefferson is a democrat, so I'm sure I know how it'll end up being resolved.
__________________

__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Domestic Adjustments after ER BOBOT Life after FIRE 59 09-27-2006 03:13 PM
Domestic Dispute Sparked Goat Shootings justin Other topics 3 02-24-2006 03:52 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:22 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.