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View Poll Results: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Very UnHappy - Want To Shoot Everyone Involved Out Of Cannon 37 44.05%
UnHappy 15 17.86%
Not Sure 5 5.95%
Don't Care 5 5.95%
It's A Good Thing 16 19.05%
Shouldn't Happen - But Doesn't Really Bother Me 6 7.14%
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-25-2006, 07:04 PM   #141
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Re: US Domestic Spying

If I was a NeoFascist Republican, I'd be puking daily by now.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-25-2006, 07:54 PM   #142
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by alphabet soup
If I was a NeoFascist Republican, I'd be puking daily by now.
Cut-Throat's production has been way up lately; maybe he has some to share...
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 11:33 AM   #143
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Yep.* Bush has ordered the materials held until someone can figure out that dangnabbed constitution thing.* Apparently this hasnt happened in over 200 years and nobody knows what to do.

The good news is that Jefferson is a democrat, so I'm sure I know how it'll end up being resolved.
As a conservative, I will say it does not matter to me if dem or rep... the Justice department was following leads of criminal activity... they went before a judge and got a WARRANT... it said what they could look for (more than likely)...

Now, if they just went in with no warrant, grabbed the info and did not tell anyboy because it was for national security some people would be OK.. not me..
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 12:21 PM   #144
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
.. they went before a judge and got a WARRANT...
Really?* Then I'm confused........again.* (Yeah I know brewer and sgeeee, I've got a small mind......rub it in why don't ya?)* President Bush is going after phone calling records without a warrant and defending that policy.* But now he's holding material seized with a warrant until?* All you legal/political experts, why the inconsistency?

The local press here says the attacks on Jefferson are because he'a a Dem and a minority.* Is President Bush just trying to cover up the real reason for the break-in?*
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 12:31 PM   #145
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by youbet
Really?* Then I'm confused........again.* (Yeah I know brewer and sgeeee, I've got a small mind......rub it in why don't ya?)* President Bush is going after phone calling records without a warrant and defending that policy.* But now he's holding material seized with a warrant until?* All you legal/political experts, why the inconsistency?

The local press here says the attacks on Jefferson are because he'a a Dem and a minority.* Is President Bush just trying to cover up the real reason for the break-in?*
I can't claim to be a constitutional expert, but my understanding is that this has snowballed into a separation of powers dispute. The executive branch isn't supposed to police the legislative branch because it opens to door to overweening influence/intimidation of one branch of the feddly gummint by another. The octopus that is this administration seems to think it can and should run everything. I think that they are about to get bitch-slapped by Congress.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 12:34 PM   #146
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
I can't claim to be a constitutional expert, but my understanding is that this has snowballed into a separation of powers dispute. The executive branch isn't supposed to police the legislative branch because it opens to door to overweening influence/intimidation of one branch of the feddly gummint by another. The octopus that is this administration seems to think it can and should run everything. I think that they are about to get bitch-slapped by Congress.
Ding Ding Ding!

A congresscritters private offices at the capitol have historically been considered sacrosanct as part of the separation of powers.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 01:00 PM   #147
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by youbet
Really?* Then I'm confused........again.* (Yeah I know brewer and sgeeee, I've got a small mind......rub it in why don't ya?)* President Bush is going after phone calling records without a warrant and defending that policy.* But now he's holding material seized with a warrant until?* All you legal/political experts, why the inconsistency?

The local press here says the attacks on Jefferson are because he'a a Dem and a minority.* Is President Bush just trying to cover up the real reason for the break-in?*
Like the last few posts... the problem is that they went to a congressman's office... separation of powers etc..

So, if I am a congressman and I run an illegal operation out of my congress office, the Justice department can not come in and search for the evidence to convict me?? Just because it had not happened before does not mean there is not a valid reason to do it... they did go to the third branch of government and ask if it would be OK to search based on the law... the third branch said 'yes'...

Now, I am one of the ones that think all of the spying stuff should have the third branch looking into it to protect my rights... considering that there are a lot of people in the Congress that think the same way as I do... and if Clinton was in office most of the republicans would also think like I do... then why doesn't someone act
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 01:06 PM   #148
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
So, if I am a congressman and I run an illegal operation out of my congress office, the Justice department can not come in and search for the evidence to convict me??*
You got it. That's how things are done here in these Yoo-nighted States, at least for the last 219 years. If Congress has a dirty rotten scoundrel, the Fan Belt Inspectors can do lots of stuff and grand juries can indict them, but raiding the Congressional offices is a no-no. This hasn't presented lots of Congress-critters who are dirty from being indicted, tried, convicted, and even sent to the Big House (Tom Delay and the Calif. greaseball that sold out to te defense contractors come to mind as examples).

Congress also has its own (lax) enforcement structures that work if enough dirty stuff is pointed out to them.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 01:55 PM   #149
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Re: US Domestic Spying

Thanks for the explanation.

So, where does this leave Jefferson? I assume he's off the hook? If, indeed, he should have ever been on the hook.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 01:59 PM   #150
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Re: US Domestic Spying

Jefferson guilty, got caught on video taking a bribe and found the money $90000 in his home in the freezer.
The raid on his office was related and not necessary for conviction.
IMHO, the outrage from Hastert is more to protect his own butt. Although I think the seperation of powers issue is a valid.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 02:07 PM   #151
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Re: US Domestic Spying

ABC news is reporting that Hastert is under investigation for corruption- related to Abrams mess

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/...t_letter_.html
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 02:45 PM   #152
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Re: US Domestic Spying

I read the story at the link.* Is Hastert actually under investigation by the government?* Or is he the subject of an ABC news story, ie., being investigated by the media?* Either I missed it or it isn't really clear in the story.

Here's the quote from ABC in the story that makes me curious:

"The Department of Justice issued two separate denials of our report that officials had told us Speaker Hastert was "in the mix" of the investigation into Congress."

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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 02:56 PM   #153
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Re: US Domestic Spying

His name probably is in the mix because of this - doesn't mean it's enough to get indicted considering the way they do business in our wonderful congress...I was surprised when he took such a hard stance against Bush on the Jefferson thing - now I understand - he doesn't want his office raided!

As was reported last year, Hastert was among four House Republican leaders who signed a 2003 letter to then-Interior Secretary Gale A. Norton in an effort to block an Indian casino opposed by tribes represented by Abramoff. Shortly before the letter was sent, Abramoff hosted a fundraiser for Hastert's political action committee. In January, the speaker said he would give to charity the donations, estimated at $69,000, that he received from Abramoff and Abramoff's clients.

Several dozen members of Congress -- some at the urging of Abramoff's team of lobbyists -- wrote letters asking Norton not to allow tribes to establish casinos on off-reservation sites. Legal experts have said that campaign contributions alone, even if closely timed to a lawmaker's action, are not likely to become a focus for investigators in the Abramoff case.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 03:12 PM   #154
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
the Calif. greaseball that sold out to te defense contractors come to mind as examples).
That would be Vietnam war hero & missile ace Randy "Duke" Cunningham.

Scumbag.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 03:13 PM   #155
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Re: US Domestic Spying

OK, got it. *ABC is NOT reporting that Hastert is under official investigation. *But they are reporting, or have reported, that Hastert "was among four House Republican leaders who signed a 2003 letter.........."

Thanks.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 03:25 PM   #156
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
You got it.* That's how things are done here in these Yoo-nighted States, at least for the last 219 years.* If Congress has a dirty rotten scoundrel, the Fan Belt Inspectors can do lots of stuff and grand juries can indict them, but raiding the Congressional offices is a no-no.* This hasn't presented lots of Congress-critters who are dirty from being indicted, tried, convicted, and even sent to the Big House (Tom Delay and the Calif. greaseball that sold out to te defense contractors come to mind as examples).

Congress also has its own (lax) enforcement structures that work if enough dirty stuff is pointed out to them.
Actually, what you say is what has happened for the last 219 years... it does not mean it is correct... we must wait for the Supreme Court decision to see if there is a Consitutional prohibition on the search... look at the new 'rights' of collecting data and listening in on calls that have come up that had never been done before (yea, I know there was no phones etc... just a nit)
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-26-2006, 03:46 PM   #157
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by youbet
OK, got it. ABC is NOT reporting that Hastert is under official investigation. But they are reporting, or have reported, that Hastert "was among four House Republican leaders who signed a 2003 letter.........."

Thanks.
you bet

Actually there is more to it than just that, but I don't want to beat a nearly dead horse congressman to death about it.
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-27-2006, 12:22 AM   #158
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Re: US Domestic Spying

Seems like the Congress has conceeded that the search WAS legal... no separation of power problem since they had a warrant...


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060527/...on_congress_68
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-28-2006, 12:04 AM   #159
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Actually there is more to it than just that, but I don't want to beat a nearly dead horse congressman to death about it.
Understood.* It's fairly easy to see where ABC is going.* Jefferson is a Dem and a minority.* While backing off from prosecuting him seems wrong at first, from a pragmatic point of view, is prosecuting him right?* Is it worth it?* How does it look when white GOP members are apparently getting away with similar infractions?
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Re: US Domestic Spying
Old 05-28-2006, 09:17 AM   #160
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Re: US Domestic Spying

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Originally Posted by youbet
Understood.* It's fairly easy to see where ABC is going.* Jefferson is a Dem and a minority.* While backing off from prosecuting him seems wrong at first, from a pragmatic point of view, is prosecuting him right?* Is it worth it?* How does it look when white GOP members are apparently getting away with similar infractions?
Oh please, spare me.* Prosecute him.* The minorities have been using that racial ca-ca for years.* Every time they get caught, they trot it out.* The constitutional question is another matter.* I guess the DOJ can't raid a congressman's office due to separation of powers.* But if you've got good evidence from elsewhere, slam him.* "I have a dream" that one day, the color of your skin won't matter", etc. etc.* The only valid concern is: "Did he do it?"* Also, one reason why Hastert et. al are concerned is we, the people, have no idea of what THEY have in their office files.* Probably enough to arrest the lot. Lawdy, what a good congressional perp walk would do to the national psyche.

BTW:* He's from New Orleans.* As a former resident, I believe New Orleans local and national legislators have mastered the art of taking political payoffs (see Edwin Edwards, Earl Long, etc.).
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