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Old 12-25-2008, 08:38 AM   #41
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We were looking at one, for the dogs, the camping, and all the other reasons. But we drove two of them, and they both shook and rattled far worse than my Highlander. Also seemed to be under powered. We wanted to like it, but it convinced us otherwise.
When I tried out an Element back in 2003 (first model year), I had a similar impression but I am very pleased with the '07 I bought. It is very solid, no rattles (yet), and the engine hp was increased that year. Of course, I had a Toyota truck before so maybe I was never used to a lot of power. I drove every small SUV out there before settling on the Element. It is great for dogs with no carpet in the rear and the rear seats come out or flip up very easily for more cargo room (my mountain bike will fit inside without removing the front wheel). I travel and do some camping, and it is ideal for my lifestyle....haven't found another vehicle that I'd rather have.
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:53 PM   #42
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Update:

So been waiting for Honda to do the inspection on my car so I can return the darned pilot, it will be done next week (finally!), I didn't think their back log was so big, but no problem, I'm not in a rush.

A dealer in the area has a 2008 New Grand touring in the color and package I want - but now - 2008 seems really old - really it could more than 1/2 a year or more - is there any mechanical concerns tied to that?

My SO thinks I should ask them for fresh tires, wipers and a battery - what say ye?

The price they're quoting online is decent about $21k before TTL, but that's before negotiating anything and I've seen folks quote a bit lower on 2008's in the last month.

They also have upped the premium financing and are now offering 0.9% financing for 60 months so no longer using penfed for that one.

I'd love to get about $20k out the door...

Anyhoo let me know if you have thoughts on buying such an old new car! i wonder if it's just been sitting around on the lot? can't have too many miles on it...If i don't get this one i'll have to opt for different color package and i'm not really keen on that since every other color only offers tan leather and that does not hold up well over time.
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Old 01-25-2009, 11:23 PM   #43
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My SO thinks I should ask them for fresh tires, wipers and a battery - what say ye?
These depend on use or time.
  • A battery usually lasts 5 - 7 years
  • Tires 30 -70K miles OR 7 years
  • Wipers - who cares, $10 each
These won't be a problem on a NEW 2008. Ask them for an SO discount instead. If asked, an SO discount is "s/he won't let me buy it unless you discount it"
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:01 PM   #44
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I'm sure you could ask to see the dealer's paperwork to see when they took delivery, then you'd know how long it has been sitting there. I would think the tires and wipers would be fine (I would worry more about the seals and rubber you can't see, but they certainly aren't going to give you new brake parts and other goodies--and I wouldn't want them messing with them anyway on a new car). If cars have really been moving slowly, they may give you an accommodation. I'd look over the paperwork and if the car has been on the lot longer than 3-4 months I'd get on my most dour expression and let them know you are really concerned about a lot of bad stuff that happens when cars just sit--flat spots on the tires, water in the fuel tank that begins the rusting process of the tank, seals in the brakes and bearings that won't seal up right after being in one spot for so long, etc, etc. "This is supposed to be a new car, but it's been sitting for a long time out in the sun, leting a car just sit is bad for it, these modern fuels start to go bad after a realtivey short time--who knows what's in that tankat this point--I sure don't , etc . . ." Then, after you've gotten your best price, tell them you'd feel better about all of this if they'll add a year of dealer coverge onto the factory warranty so you won't have to worry about the hundreds of things that could be wrong with the car. And don't breathe a WORD about liking the color--as far as they are concerned, you really don't like it very much .
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Old 01-26-2009, 11:21 PM   #45
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If possible, take a baby with you, a grandchild or maybe borrow somebody else's. The best deal we ever made was when my DD was < 1 and screaming at the top of her lungs the whole time. Nobody offered us an extended warranty, we didn't play the "let me talk to my manager" games, just got our price, signed the papers, and got out. I'm thinking of starting a business renting kids out for these kinds of things. I'll charge for the babysitting and the rental, double dipping!
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Old 01-27-2009, 08:47 AM   #46
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I'm sure you could ask to see the dealer's paperwork to see when they took delivery, then you'd know how long it has been sitting there. I would think the tires and wipers would be fine (I would worry more about the seals and rubber you can't see, but they certainly aren't going to give you new brake parts and other goodies--and I wouldn't want them messing with them anyway on a new car). If cars have really been moving slowly, they may give you an accommodation. I'd look over the paperwork and if the car has been on the lot longer than 3-4 months I'd get on my most dour expression and let them know you are really concerned about a lot of bad stuff that happens when cars just sit--flat spots on the tires, water in the fuel tank that begins the rusting process of the tank, seals in the brakes and bearings that won't seal up right after being in one spot for so long, etc, etc. "This is supposed to be a new car, but it's been sitting for a long time out in the sun, leting a car just sit is bad for it, these modern fuels start to go bad after a realtivey short time--who knows what's in that tankat this point--I sure don't , etc . . ." Then, after you've gotten your best price, tell them you'd feel better about all of this if they'll add a year of dealer coverge onto the factory warranty so you won't have to worry about the hundreds of things that could be wrong with the car. And don't breathe a WORD about liking the color--as far as they are concerned, you really don't like it very much .
These days, the dealers should feel LUCKY that ANYONE wants to buy a new car. You have leverage, use it.........
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:22 AM   #47
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Actually the sticker with the VIN number on the B-column tells you exactly the month and year of production as well as production location. This will tell you more than the dealer paperwork since sometimes dealers swap cars.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:25 AM   #48
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I learned a lesson a long time ago but if you don't understand economic analysis you will never learn this lesson. The lesson is to do an present value analysis for any car deal. Just to make things simple, let's say you have a choice between a used car with 20,000 miles for $14,000, or a new car for $20,000. If you plan on keeping the car until it has 160,000 miles, and you drive 20,000 miles per year, the used car will give you 7 years. The new car will give you 8 1/2 years. Simple math says the used car will depreciate at $2,000 per year; the new car will depreciate at $2,350 per year.

Now $350 per year is not much, it may go far in paying your insurance. Other factors enter the equation, such as wear and tear on the used car. Or if you buy from a private seller, you can both write in a low sales price - and pay less sales tax. If you buy the new car on credit you must factor in the interest payments versus the interest not earned if you pay cash.

In the past, I have always looked for a private seller who NEEDS to sell a used car with low mileage for some reason. I always take the used car to a mechanic for a complete check-up before I buy.

In most cases, the used car is far cheaper (on an annualized basis) than the new car. And remember, a car is the one, large, investment that ALWAYS looses money. Its like putting $20k in a hole in the ground - and coming back 8 to 10 years later and it is gone.

Think about this and buy the cheapest car that is reliable and will meet your needs. Forget about the glitter, and the thrill, and the new car smell - all that is expensive to buy and is quickly lost to time. Stick the money in a mattress - at least it will stay there!
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:27 AM   #49
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Thanks for the good advice (as usual)...I'll make sure to note the production date and make some sour faces...

I've emailed w/ their online folks quite a bit, and I'm always surprised the same car is just sitting there, what an economy! This dealer is also in an isolated area so not a lot of convenience shoppers there.

Hope the inspection goes well then I'm off to the dealer!

My kids are usually well behaved, but maybe I will take them without snacks and before a nap after a long day out? haha
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:29 PM   #50
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I have a car addiction. My wife sees them as point A to point B tho. So I take her since she has no patience with me tormenting the car salesmen. She will bad mouth the car, and say how much better she liked the competitors car, etc. Its like good cop, bad cop!

Last car I bought I emailed a bunch of Honda dealerships and requested best quote on a Honda Pilot. Went in, bought it from a local dealership that offered invoice, minus the hidden $3000 rebate for MY leftovers. Some dealers "forgot" to tell me about the rebate.

I did get thrown out of one of them. New saleswoman, didn't know anything about the car and my trade in. I'm afraid I was rather abrupt ;-)
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:13 PM   #51
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Or if you buy from a private seller, you can both write in a low sales price - and pay less sales tax.
Would you advise people to steal from stores and neighborhood houses, or just from the state (and, thereby, other taxpayers?)
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:03 AM   #52
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Or if you buy from a private seller, you can both write in a low sales price - and pay less sales tax.
Sounds like you've done that, which btw is illegal. Plus, you have an accomplice, the buyer. A guy in town who USED to own a used car lot did that (dumb). The state shut him down in less than 48 hours.......I guess you never know who might brag about screwing the state, and when.....
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:43 AM   #53
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Would you advise people to steal from stores and neighborhood houses, or just from the state (and, thereby, other taxpayers?)
Yes, it is my form of civil disobedience. A used car has already paid a lot ton of taxes in California - the government doesn't get a second whack at my wallet on a used car.

Do you pay taxes on things sold at a garage sale?
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:53 AM   #54
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Or if you buy from a private seller, you can both write in a low sales price - and pay less sales tax.
Some states have passed (anti-Hobo ) laws and use a program to determine the value of a used car. Texas for example:

Texans who purchase used motor vehicles, including cars, trucks and motorcycles, from private parties will owe tax on the Standard Presumptive Value. This value is the calculated price of a vehicle’s worth based on similar sales in the Texas region. The value applies whether you buy the vehicle in Texas or another state. The sales tax you owe is based on that amount – even if you paid less for the vehicle. If you paid more for your vehicle than the SPV amount, you owe sales tax on the vehicle’s actual purchase price.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:45 AM   #55
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I hate underpowered cars. There are hills and mountains all around me, and it just doesn't work out. I have a Subaru Impreza which is pretty good, but I wish I had paid up for the WRX with turbo. Years ago I had a Saab 3 cylindar 2 cycle. My wife's aunt and uncle were visiting. I had to ask them to walk up the long drive where I could pick them up, because my car didn't have the torque to handle the extra 400 #. Embarrassed me totally.

Ha
I remember that car, roommate in college had one, suicide doors. No starter so we left it on a hill near the dorm, always started, smoked and was really fun & different.
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:55 AM   #56
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Some states have passed (anti-Hobo ) laws and use a program to determine the value of a used car. Texas for example:

Texans who purchase used motor vehicles, including cars, trucks and motorcycles, from private parties will owe tax on the Standard Presumptive Value. This value is the calculated price of a vehicle’s worth based on similar sales in the Texas region. The value applies whether you buy the vehicle in Texas or another state. The sales tax you owe is based on that amount – even if you paid less for the vehicle. If you paid more for your vehicle than the SPV amount, you owe sales tax on the vehicle’s actual purchase price.
This is WAY OFF THE SUBJECT, and maybe I am getting to be a crotchety old man, but this is another reason why I retired over-seas - in an undeveloped country. Computers, bureaucracy and the oppressive tax system has not yet hit many of these countries.

From the time I land at LAX and must pass through the long lines of customs while "big brother" speakers blare announcements telling you all the rules - and the punishment if you are caught, I fell like a slave. Really. I must wait in long, long lines just to get my passport checked. Of course leaving the country is like going getting into and out of prison with all the security and checkpoints.

It isn't like that in Singapore. You flash your passport to a waiting clerk, (while listening to pleasant music), get a smile and a stamp, pick up your bags waiting at the carousel, and walk to the nearby elevator that takes you to the subway system.

It is true, REWahoo, there are too many "anti-Hobo laws" in the US to suit me. I wonder how long we can brag we live with freedom, and liberty - and not know the true meaning of these terms nor realize we have lost many of them.
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:08 AM   #57
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From the time I land at LAX and must pass through the long lines of customs while "big brother" speakers blare announcements telling you all the rules - and the punishment if you are caught, I fell like a slave. Really. I must wait in long, long lines just to get my passport checked. Of course leaving the country is like going getting into and out of prison with all the security and checkpoints.

It isn't like that in Singapore.
No, it apparently isn't:

Aspects of Singapore law are perceived to be harsh. Certain laws such as the Internal Security Act[3] (which authorizes detention without trial in certain circumstances) and the Societies Act[4] (which regulates the formation of associations) that were enacted during British rule in Singapore...

...Singapore society is highly regulated through the criminalization of many activities which are considered as fairly harmless in other countries. These include failing to flush toilets after use, littering, jaywalking, the possession of pornography,the sale of chewing gum...

Singapore retains both corporal punishment (in the form of caning) and capital punishment (by hanging) as punishments for serious offences. For certain offences, the imposition of these penalties is mandatory.Law of Singapore - Wikipedia
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:11 AM   #58
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Cummon REW, don't try to confuse us with facts.
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:13 AM   #59
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No, it apparently isn't:

Aspects of Singapore law are perceived to be harsh. Certain laws such as the Internal Security Act[3] (which authorizes detention without trial in certain circumstances) and the Societies Act[4] (which regulates the formation of associations) that were enacted during British rule in Singapore...

...Singapore society is highly regulated through the criminalization of many activities which are considered as fairly harmless in other countries. These include failing to flush toilets after use, littering, jaywalking, the possession of pornography,the sale of chewing gum...

Singapore retains both corporal punishment (in the form of caning) and capital punishment (by hanging) as punishments for serious offences. For certain offences, the imposition of these penalties is mandatory.Law of Singapore - Wikipedia
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:16 AM   #60
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Yes, it is my form of civil disobedience. A used car has already paid a lot ton of taxes in California - the government doesn't get a second whack at my wallet on a used car.
Move out of California, and that will change.......

Quote:
Do you pay taxes on things sold at a garage sale?
There's a place to put it on your 1040, you mean you don't report that either??
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