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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 07:35 AM   #41
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

No punishment or other deterrent would prevent anyone who blows a fuse to do a rampage like this one.
The solution is to ban assault weapon for everyone but the army!!! Most police work doesn't even need this kind of weapon.

Only weapons used for defense or hunting should ever be sold. And registered and licensed.

I equate gun manufacturing to tobacco manufacturing. It is beyond me that powerful market interests can successfully go against the wellfare of the whole society by lobbying Congress.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:07 AM   #42
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

It's stunning how common it is in this age to blame the weapon rather than even voice the question: How could a human being be able to do this?

Is this because we are too horrified to contemplate an answer? If we don't ask the question, perhaps we won't have to directly address what our societies are becoming - and why?

Or have we become so shallow and ignorant, now, that it no longer even occurs to us?

Either, candidly, disgusts me.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:11 AM   #43
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Perinova--Just to be fair the military doesn't even use assault weapons any more. The M-16 is not capable of shooting full auto, one thing that is required of an assault weapon. The only weapons that actually shoot fully automatic are too large and bulky to be classified as an assault weapon. The last ban was on scary looking military style weapons, not assault weapons. A person must have a firearms license to own the old school assault weapons. I do not have one, but Know several people who have the license and from what they said they went through a very thorough back ground check lasting several months.

In the situation at VT, an assault weapon wasn't used, so how would banning them have made the campus safer?
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:25 AM   #44
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

From the discriptions on the news the shooter had a "handgun and a .22" with a vest full of magazines. My guess is that the "handgun" is a Glock. For the 9mm you can get a 30 round magazine that are plentiful and relatively inexpensive. There are several 9mm Glocks - 17 - full size; 19 - medium; 26 compact. All are semi automatic - one trigger pull one discharge.

More conjecture - magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds were band by the "Brady Bill" that expired a couple of years ago. I'm sure this will come up in the media as some sort of significant issues. But it really isn't. With a handgun that uses a magazine it is a simple matter of exchanging one magazine for another. The term for it is a "Tatitical reload" before the gun is empty (one round in the chamber) you take out the empty magazine and put in a full one.

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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:27 AM   #45
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by livnlow
A one person Chinese army has some people talking about giving up our right to bear arms. I would have thought a larger invasion would have been required. No force is required to strip an American of his rights. Just scare him a little and he'll be throwing away his rights in exchange for "safety". Seems familiar. The world is watching and learning.

Ironically, one armed American could have stopped the carnage before 32 innocent Americans were slaughtered by a foreigner.
I think the quote is something like "He who gives up liberty for security has gained nothing." Any help here?
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:37 AM   #46
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joss
It's stunning how common it is in this age to blame the weapon rather than even voice the question: How could a human being be able to do this?

Is this because we are too horrified to contemplate an answer? If we don't ask the question, perhaps we won't have to directly address what our societies are becoming - and why?

Or have we become so shallow and ignorant, now, that it no longer even occurs to us?

Either, candidly, disgusts me.
There are societal problems that could be solved and reduce this kind of incidents (reduce the stress on people?). However It is not blaming the weapon to recognize that we should make sure they don't fall in the wrong hands!

I understand your point and your question is valid... however you didn't propose an answer to the question that you have asked.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:45 AM   #47
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
Perinova--Just to be fair the military doesn't even use assault weapons any more. The M-16 is not capable of shooting full auto, one thing that is required of an assault weapon. The only weapons that actually shoot fully automatic are too large and bulky to be classified as an assault weapon. The last ban was on scary looking military style weapons, not assault weapons. A person must have a firearms license to own the old school assault weapons. I do not have one, but Know several people who have the license and from what they said they went through a very thorough back ground check lasting several months.

In the situation at VT, an assault weapon wasn't used, so how would banning them have made the campus safer?
I admit ignorance about this kind ofcweaponry. My opinion mostly relates to the need for weapons that can reload fast (?) and do a rampage in a crowd. If this guy have had no access to such a weapon the students would have been able to jump on the guy and control him. (well... easier said than done...)

How many of those puppies are traveling in our society? Who has them and what are they doing with them?
I have heard that the "clips" allowing for fast reload and shoot many rounds had been banned at some time. What good does it do if they are still in people's basements and be passed around at will?
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 08:49 AM   #48
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
chained some exits to prevent escape
I've seen the news media make this assumption. It's also possible that he chained the exits to slow down interference from the police.

DW's friend that goes to VT is OK.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 09:16 AM   #49
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Perinova--The only solution to your position seems to be to ban all weapons that hold more than one round. This would lesson the usefulness of the firearm in hunting and would lead to more wounded animals wandering around only to die during the winter. That would be a pointless death. The ban you speak of limited the number of rounds a magazine could hold to, I believe, 10 rounds. This lowered the number from 15 rounds. Either way it doesn't make much difference. It only requires the shooter to reload more frequently and someone who is mildly experienced with a semi-auto pistol can reload rather quickly. Revolvers are a bit slower and require more practice to reload quickly, but then all the shooter has to do is carry more pistols.

Al--The doors were chained. A friend of mine was on scene and confirmed this.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 09:29 AM   #50
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Is magot was outnumbered, what, 100 to 1, maybe 500 to one inside the building. Allow me a simple question: How could everyone stand by and watch while the doors are chained shut THEN watch while 20+ people are lined up and executed.

Post 911, how are we still so complacent? He KILLED HIMSELF !
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 09:55 AM   #51
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

As I've mentioned, I w*rk at a college campus. I wouldn't say people are running around in terror, but it's been a strangely subdued atmosphere this morning, with both the students and faculty. I dislike guns, but I'm also a pragmatist. Leaving aside the question of whether we could or should pass gun control laws, I suspect they'd be about as effective as prohibition was, simply because of the sheer number of weapons floating around this country. Would guns in the hands of students/faculty made a substantial difference in what happened? I honestly don't know--I wasn't there, and I don't know whether there were any people of the right training and temperment that could have dealt with the situation had they been armed. I do know that I've been contemplating getting a handgun for the past year or so, and this is another tick in the "pro" column.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 10:11 AM   #52
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joss
It's stunning how common it is in this age to blame the weapon rather than even voice the question: How could a human being be able to do this?
EXACTLY!! What ever happened to the concept of personal responsibility for one's actions? Punish all of the innocent law-abiding citizens because some whack job goes on a rampage? I guarantee I vote against ANYBODY; Rep, Dem or Lib or tries to take my guns!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 10:23 AM   #53
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
It's stunning how common it is in this age to blame the weapon rather than even voice the question: How could a human being be able to do this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredbop
EXACTLY!! What ever happened to the concept of personal responsibility for one's actions? Punish all of the innocent law-abiding citizens because some whack job goes on a rampage? I guarantee I vote against ANYBODY; Rep, Dem or Lib or tries to take my guns!
Today I am starting the National Nuclear Weapons Association (NNWA). The goal of the NNWA organization is to promote and avocate the safe use and handling of nuclear weapons and to promote legislation as such. Nuclear weapons can be used to hunt and for sporting purposes and to defend yourself from intruders.

Anyone who abuses nuclear weapons should be punished ! But don't punish all of the law obiding citizens who have a legal right to nuclear weapons.

Don't punish all of the innocent law-abiding citizens because some whack job goes on a rampage and illegally uses nuclear weapons !
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 10:35 AM   #54
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

... and sign-up time to the NNWA is limited. If you missed the sign-up deadline you'll be prohibited from ever owning nukes by those who have them.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 10:35 AM   #55
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

For channel one news, this is HFWR reporting. Nearly 300 million Americans weren't shot yesterday. In a related story, nearly 300 million Americans didn't go on a shooting rampage yesterday.

News at eleven...
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 10:49 AM   #56
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

OKLibrarian; as a career law enforcement officer, a member of the NRA, and a competitive pistol shooter I applaud your decision. I would like to make a suggestion. find someone who shoots on a regular basis and try a few out before you go plunk down your money. Find what you like, and what you will be willing to practice with on a regular basis.

I am often asked what weapon to buy for a first timer. My response is almost always to consider a revolver in a .38 Special or larger caliber, with a 2-3" barrel. It has been my experience that the average John Q does not typically practice near enough to handle the occasiona misfire or stovepipe jam possible in ALL semi-auto pistols. Revolvers, OTOH, are practically idiot proof. You really have to work at it to jam one of them.

I recommend the 2-3" barrels because they are concealable and lighter. The finest firearm in the world, and one that you can shoot perfect scoreswith all day, will do you no good at all if it is home in the nightstand or worse locked up in the safe.

And remember, the only form of gun control that works is HITTING YOUR TARGET!!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 11:14 AM   #57
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
I think the quote is something like "He who gives up liberty for security has gained nothing." Any help here?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." -- Ben Franklin
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 11:15 AM   #58
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

An interesting, somber and heroic story within the story is that a professor who was a holocaust survivor blocked the door and took bullets while telling his students to flee. He survived the holocaust but not the VT massacre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
I think the quote is something like "He who gives up liberty for security has gained nothing." Any help here?
Franklin I think said something like "he who gives up liberty for security deserves neither" and maybe gets neither. (oops...cross-posted w/Nords)

Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredbop
I am often asked what weapon to buy for a first timer. My response is almost always to consider a revolver in a .38 Special or larger caliber, with a 2-3" barrel. It has been my experience that the average John Q does not typically practice near enough to handle the occasiona misfire or stovepipe jam possible in ALL semi-auto pistols. Revolvers, OTOH, are practically idiot proof. You really have to work at it to jam one of them.

I recommend the 2-3" barrels because they are concealable and lighter. The finest firearm in the world, and one that you can shoot perfect scoreswith all day, will do you no good at all if it is home in the nightstand or worse locked up in the safe.
I actually had a range rental revolver jam on me. Surprised me, but I guess it was heavily used and not well maintained. For the range I found I much preferred a heavier long barrel revolver...much less kick. But not good for conceal and carry. (BTW I don't actually own a gun...I have kids (niece and nephew) in and out and can't think of a safe enough way to keep one at home.)
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 11:28 AM   #59
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by livnlow
A one person Chinese army has some people talking about giving up our right to bear arms. I would have thought a larger invasion would have been required. No force is required to strip an American of his rights. Just scare him a little and he'll be throwing away his rights in exchange for "safety". Seems familiar. The world is watching and learning.

Ironically, one armed American could have stopped the carnage before 32 innocent Americans were slaughtered by a foreigner.
Oh geez, now let's get ignorant here.

someone said he might be asian - there are over 30 asian countries and more than double that the number of ethnic groups within China - so cut out the bull generalizations puh-leeeeez....

as of today we know he is korean - check google if you need to see a map of where that country is.

and for your information there are millions of AMERICANS who are of asian descent....

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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-17-2007, 11:30 AM   #60
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Idiot-proof is a good thing, in my case. :-) I hear about shooting 101-type events around here every few months that are geared towards women/newbies, I may go to the next one that works with my schedule and give it a whirl. I have several friends who shoot/hunt, and I may talk to one of them as well about getting an informal primer. I haven't made up my mind by any means, mostly because it's a big responsibility to be a gun owner, but I guess I'm starting to get so frustrated about the scads of morons running around with weaponry that perhaps it's time for a few more sensible people to pack heat as well.

As others said above, the problem is that there are seriously screwed up people running around with guns. Short of mandatory psychotherapy for every person on the planet, I don't see that changing. Humans have been "doing this", or versions of this, since the dawn of civilization (go read the Iliad, the book of I Samuel, or pretty much anything about the roman empire if you think we're much more violent than any other culture/time in history). We just have different tools with which to act out our collective death wish. I would love to live in the perfect socialist paradise of group hugs, social equality and frolicking purple bunnyrabbits. Until that day comes, my job is to help this world become a little kinder and a little more just, and to protect those in my care from people who intend them harm. If that means it's time for this flaming liberal to contemplate buying a gun, then...*sigh*

Sometimes the world just sucks, you know?
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