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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 03:37 PM   #121
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

I don't own a firearm but I'd like to reserve my right to own one in the future.

How common is it for a homeowner to actually repel a burglary/home invasion with their firearm? I hear about burglaries, break-ins, and home invasions pretty frequently around here, but I hardly ever hear about a homeowner actually stopping the burglary in progress by shooting the perp or scaring him off.

Is the argument that the big unknown of gun ownership scattered throughout our neighborhoods is a significant deterrent to home invasions and burglaries when the homeowner is home? As an analogy, does random gun ownership work against crime like vaccinations work against contagious diseases/illnesses? If 90% of a population is vaccinated against a certain illness, then the illness might be essentially eradicated. If 30% of homes have a gun in them, then burlaries and home invasions (when the homeowner is home) have been severely reduced as a result? In other words, do I, as a non-gun owner get protection from burglaries and home invasions because criminals are scared of the 30% chance that I may have a gun?
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 04:05 PM   #122
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by justin
In other words, do I, as a non-gun owner get protection from burglaries and home invasions because criminals are scared of the 30% chance that I may have a gun?
Better appoint a panel of scientists to study this.

Ha
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 04:24 PM   #123
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

it was once said by a high level russion general that it wasnt the american army they feared as much as the thought of invading a country with over 75 million armed citizens
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 04:25 PM   #124
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Justin,

You'ld be better off with a dog ... buut if you find yourself in an event like New Orleans looting or LA rioting, Fido probably won't carry enough of a bite.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 04:28 PM   #125
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by HaHa
Better appoint a panel of scientists to study this.
Well, there are so many other things preventing someone from breaking into my house. Morals. Fear of arrest/imprisonment. Fear of getting hurt by non-firearm weapons. Fear of the starving rotties I've been training to pit-fight that I leave inside my house. Fear of an alarm system. Fear of getting shot by the police if they are caught in the act. Fear of shame when their face is on the 5 o clock news.

How significant is the fact that I might have a gun? What marginal deterrent benefit does random gun ownership convey on me?
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 04:28 PM   #126
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Rudy Giuliani claims that gun contol helped reduce crime in New York City. In 1997 a Palestinian man open fired on the observation deck of the Empire State Building, killing one and wounding several others. At that time Giuliani called for uniform federal licensing requirements. He said that lax laws in the south allowed criminals to easily bring weapons into the northeast. (The man acquired his gun in Florida.) He also supported the Brady Bill and Assault Weapons Ban. Now that he's running for President he's toned down his support for gun control.

The problem is that what's good for big cities isn't necessarily good for rural areas, and it's very easy to transport weapons across state boundries. Here we have a conundrum.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 05:31 PM   #127
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Also, do you think a Palestianian bent on mayhem would have any trouble getting a gun? Even if he lived in England?

I don't think he would.

Ha
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 06:08 PM   #128
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

I don't know. If he was bent on mayhem he'd probably choose a place where he could cause the most damage without being stopped. I think it would be difficult in Hawaii where gun laws are strict and an ocean separates us from places with lax gun laws.

The point is that what makes sense in urban areas may be different than in rural areas and that ease of transport causes a problem. When Giuliani was responsible for the safety of NYC residents he was for gun control. But now he wants to get elected nationally. Same goes for Mitt Romney. Are there any big city mayors or police chiefs that support widespread gun ownership?
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 06:23 PM   #129
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

HaHa, you're one sick puppy!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 06:53 PM   #130
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Listen I keep hearing oh Washington DC NYC and New Jersey are places that you cannot buy handguns, or it is very difficult but there are many hand gun killings.

Most of the handguns come from the southern states! Right up Interstate 95! Virginia is one of the worst!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 09:27 PM   #131
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by newguy888
Listen I keep hearing oh Washington DC NYC and New Jersey are places that you cannot buy handguns, or it is very difficult but there are many hand gun killings.

Most of the handguns come from the southern states! Right up Interstate 95! Virginia is one of the worst!
Right. As you point out, it is only difficult for law abiding citizens to buy handguns in those places. Criminals have no problem getting them. Disarming the populace has done wonders for the crime--well, to be clear, it does wonders for the practicioners of crime. I like the idea that people who invade homes, mug people, rape, and conduct assaults just for fun should face a real possibilty that some of their victims, or someone near enough to take action, just might be armed. When you find out just how many crimes some of these thugs commit in just a single year, it becomes clear that maybe the odds might just catch up with them fairly quickly. And maybe their hoodlum friends will get the word, too.

You mention Virginia. Approximately 2% of Virginians have concealed carry permits (Source: Roanoke Times, 3/11/2007). Assuming a regular distribution of permit holders among those on the VT campus, and a campus population of 30,000 on that day, that would mean 600 concealed carry permit holders were on campus. Unfortunately, in part because of regulations designed to "make people feel safer," none of these law abiding citizens had a weapon available when Cho began his deadly spree.

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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 09:39 PM   #132
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by justin
Well, there are so many other things preventing someone from breaking into my house. Morals. Fear of arrest/imprisonment. Fear of getting hurt by non-firearm weapons. Fear of the starving rotties I've been training to pit-fight that I leave inside my house. Fear of an alarm system. Fear of getting shot by the police if they are caught in the act. Fear of shame when their face is on the 5 o clock news.

How significant is the fact that I might have a gun? What marginal deterrent benefit does random gun ownership convey on me?
90% of burglaries occur when the home owner is away. Most of what you ask is irrelevant. Most criminals do not fear any part of the criminal justice system. I found it easiest to scare the crap out of criminals when they thought I was about to go off the deep end. Many consider it good to be on the news. The people who break into your house are not doctors or lawyers they are criminals. When they see themselves on the 5 o'clock news it adds to their reputation with their friends. Many have just as many friends in jail as out of jail. The biggest thing the criminals fear is an armed homeowner. That is why few burglaries occur with the home owner present. Many do not like dogs in someones house and if they hear a dog barking they will go to the next house.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-19-2007, 09:43 PM   #133
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

I'm going to hijack this thread - the real discussion is here:
http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...07.0;topicseen
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 01:25 AM   #134
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by samclem
Disarming the populace has done wonders for the crime--well, to be clear, it does wonders for the practicioners of crime. I like the idea that people who invade homes, mug people, rape, and conduct assaults just for fun should face a real possibilty that some of their victims, or someone near enough to take action, just might be armed. When you find out just how many crimes some of these thugs commit in just a single year, it becomes clear that maybe the odds might just catch up with them fairly quickly. And maybe their hoodlum friends will get the word, too.

I don't know about disarming, but I have read that making guns more available has cut down on crime in Florida. But it hasn't cut down on shooting deaths if you factor in all the accidental shootings, children getting ahold of guns, that sort of thing. Yes, I know--people should be responsible. But often they aren't, and often it's others, including children, that pay the price.

The tragedy that results from crime gets a lot of press and possibly more sympathy because it plays to all of our fear of powerlessness. But accidental shootings are just as tragic. That being said, I do own guns so call me a hyporcite

I'm not for banning guns--far from it. I just personally don't feel more secure with the notion that the streets are full of people carrying concealed weapons. After observing how some people behave with automobiles, the thought of them packing is very disturbing....

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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 01:32 AM   #135
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by newguy888
We should be banging down the doors of our worthless political hacks demanding they rebuild the mental hospitals in the country and take these sick people off the streets. If we are going to keep guns around the sick humans need to be locked up. The idea that a shizophrenic will continue to take his medication when he feels better living alone is just dumb! They need to be put away safe and to keep society safe.
Nuts on the street is part of the Reagan legacy. Thank him for it. He closed down all the the mental hospitals as part of budget cuts.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 02:55 AM   #136
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

an armed society is a polite society!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 05:09 AM   #137
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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an armed society is a polite society!
Dude have you seen Iraq ? The west bank and gaza? Somolia? They all have guns.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 06:42 AM   #138
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by samclem
Unfortunately, in part because of regulations designed to "make people feel safer," none of these law abiding citizens had a weapon available when Cho began his deadly spree.
I am generally OK with guns and even wish I could own a pistol in DC. But the idea of a bunch of pistol packing kids in class or a vastly increased number of armed drivers flashing into road rage is horrifying.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 08:14 AM   #139
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy888
Dude have you seen Iraq ? The west bank and gaza? Somolia? They all have guns.
Dude have you seen Switzerland? All people who have been in the service are required to have a gun at home.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 08:25 AM   #140
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

"Dude have you seen Iraq ? The west bank and gaza? Somolia? They all have guns." 


If you see those place as just like us, you must think just passing a new gun law in those places would solve their problem.  You ready to go take their guns away?  Oh wait... we have most of the US Army in Iraq trying to do just that. 

How's that working so far? 

But it would be totally different if we did it here... right?  :P 
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