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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 08:30 AM   #141
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
I am generally OK with guns and even wish I could own a pistol in DC. But the idea of a bunch of pistol packing kids in class or a vastly increased number of armed drivers flashing into road rage is horrifying.
I've heard the courts have invaldated a key provision of DC's gun ban, so you may have your wish soon.


There's been a lot written about the value of concealed carry laws in reducing crime. Much of this compares places which allow concealed carry of weapons to places that do not. I think these comparisons are highly suspect (since places with high crime often prohibit concealed carry--the comparison confuses cause and effect, IMO). But on the subject of multiple shootings such as the VT case, there's strong evidence that allowing more liberal concealed carry of weapons has been effective in reducing these incidents.

"In a letter to the Los Angeles Times in April 1999, John Lott (author of More Guns Less Crime) said, "When states passed them [shall-issue CCW laws] during the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by 90%, injuries by 82%."

Road RAge: Does not appear to be a significant problem, though I didn't dig too far. According to Lott (quoted above) at least as of 1999, there had only been one reported case of a "road rage" shooting involving the holder of a concealed carry permit (it was in 1996), and in the end the shooting was ruled to be in self defense. There may have been more since then, I don't know.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 12:09 PM   #142
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

well, gun violence is still one of the top causes of death and injury to adolescents...not heart disease or cancer - they get lost in the stats...
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 02:15 PM   #143
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by bright eyed
well, gun violence is still one of the top causes of death and injury to adolescents...not heart disease or cancer - they get lost in the stats...
While homicide is number 2 I can not tell from the information what the instrument was - gun; knife; poison, automobile, blunt instriument


http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html

FIVE LEADING CAUSES OF DEATH, USA, AGES 15-24, 1998
CAUSE

PERCENT OF TOP 5

NUMBERS
(1) Accidents 51.8% 12,752
(2) Homicide 21.3% 5,233
(3) Suicide 16.3% 4,003
(4) Cancer 6.8% 1,670
(5) Heart Disease 3.9% 961



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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 02:50 PM   #144
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

From age 10 to 60 more than 50% of all homicides are gun related.
At about age 20 -> 75% of all homicides are gun related!

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-20-2007, 04:50 PM   #145
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by newguy888
Dude have you seen Iraq ? The west bank and gaza? Somolia? They all have guns.

we arent dealing with sane reasonable people here, in fact i bet all the guns and bombs maybe keeping them in check somewhat. just imagine if only 1 of the sects had guns and bombs.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 11:07 AM   #146
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by justin
I don't own a firearm but I'd like to reserve my right to own one in the future.

How common is it for a homeowner to actually repel a burglary/home invasion with their firearm? I hear about burglaries, break-ins, and home invasions pretty frequently around here, but I hardly ever hear about a homeowner actually stopping the burglary in progress by shooting the perp or scaring him off.

Is the argument that the big unknown of gun ownership scattered throughout our neighborhoods is a significant deterrent to home invasions and burglaries when the homeowner is home? As an analogy, does random gun ownership work against crime like vaccinations work against contagious diseases/illnesses? If 90% of a population is vaccinated against a certain illness, then the illness might be essentially eradicated. If 30% of homes have a gun in them, then burlaries and home invasions (when the homeowner is home) have been severely reduced as a result? In other words, do I, as a non-gun owner get protection from burglaries and home invasions because criminals are scared of the 30% chance that I may have a gun?
You ought to read the book "More Guns. Less Crime". John Lott, the author, has spent his career as a criminologist studying the issue. He has found, that your gut, instinct was correct. 2.5 million crimes are stopped every year by a citizen owning a gun. Most simply by banishing the firearm. As fewer good guys own guns, more of these 2.5 million crimes are realized.

In interviewing prison inmates, criminals say the number on thing that scares them is a home owner with a gun. Police arrest, home owners shoot to kill.

My moto... "Tresspassers will be shot, survivers will be shot again."
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 11:31 AM   #147
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Nice try but having less guns in the society doesn't mean leaving them to the bad guys and taking them from the good guys. It means leaving guns to law enforcement (i.e. the militia).
Statistics comparing countries show there are less casualties with less guns. IT also means that crimes are less dangerous.

If I had a choice I'd rather being robbed than being shot.

I prefer to keep my homeowner's insurance for peace of mind just in case. Better than keeping a mean of killing an individual being who could be a member of my household.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 12:43 PM   #148
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

The only problem I see is how to figure out who has firearms. The lawful owners are on record as owning them. Even if they did not have to register the firearm, when it was purchased from the store a paper trail was made. This trail follows the firearm from manufacturer to the first retail purchaser. The criminals who aren't allowed to own firearms had to obtain them from a source other than a traditional retail outlet. Bad guys are notoriously bad at keeping a paper trail of sales. So even if the firearms were outlawed today, there would be no practical way for law enforcement to track the ownership of illegally purchased weapons or sales of weapons between private persons. The end result will be the only people to lose their firearms are those who own them legally.

If you prefer not to own a firearm that is fine. Actually it is better that you don't own one, if you are unsure of your ability to use it when needed.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 12:48 PM   #149
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

This topic is like global warming. If you don't like what the legitimate studies say, there are dozens of people torturing data, making up facts, and publishing results that you can embrace.

Relative to other industrialized countries, the US has very liberal gun ownership laws and a very high gun/citizen ratio. Most of these guns are in the hands of people who treat them with appropriate respect and are never used in a manner that hurts anyone. Occasionally, a desperate drug addict, sociopath, or nut case gets hold of one and wreaks havoc. More occasionally, a gun is used against a family member by a good person having a very bad day.

I just don't see how this situation leads people to honestly think the answer is more liberal gun ownership laws. It seems to me that more guns that are easier to get will tend to make it even more common to find one in the hands of the nut jobs, etc. How will more guns reduce the violence of family on family? Advocating more guns for vigilante enforcement after we give more guns to the nut jobs seems like trying to get the genie back in the bottle. Why not focus on keeping the guns out of the hands of the nut jobs? If someone is shooting holes in your boat, do you recommend more lifeboats or do you try to stop the shooting?

I also question the wisdom of providing guns to students to avoid this sort of thing. It seems to me that highly trained law enforcement people with thousands of hours of training and apprenticeships under experienced officers are going to be hampered when they arrive at a scene to find armed students doing their own enforcement. How are they to tell the good guys from the bad guys? Why do we think students are going to be good at law enforcement with minimal training and experience when we require the law officials to have so much?
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 12:57 PM   #150
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin

How common is it for a homeowner to actually repel a burglary/home invasion with their firearm? I hear about burglaries, break-ins, and home invasions pretty frequently around here, but I hardly ever hear about a homeowner actually stopping the burglary in progress by shooting the perp or scaring him off.
Most of the 'almosts' don't get reported to the police... unless of course you have a dead perp in your house...
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 01:03 PM   #151
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by perinova
Nice try but having less guns in the society doesn't mean leaving them to the bad guys and taking them from the good guys. It means leaving guns to law enforcement (i.e. the militia).
Statistics comparing countries show there are less casualties with less guns. IT also means that crimes are less dangerous.


Actually since the enactment of gun control both in england and Australia we have seen dramatic raise in violent crime. In fact england is the favorite example of the NRA. With a quick search on england and gun control I found an article immediately on the issue.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2205

Quote:
Originally Posted by perinova
If I had a choice I'd rather being robbed than being shot.
You assume all criminals are rational. A drug addict doesn't think rationally. He thinks ... kill => steal => get high. In fact there is a good possibility he won't even know he has been shot, his brains is not functioning.

The gun was called the great equalizer because it leveled the playing field a 90 lbs woman and a 250 lbs rapist. In fact women are 250% less likely to be injured when attacked if they have a firearm.

We can argue about stats all day, and trust me I used to spend hours *memorizing* them. But really there is a principle that is more important that stats "All animals have a basic right to defend themselves and their offspring." That includes you, your children, the your lady being stocked, and kids attending college.

BTW ... Our forefathers. You know the ones that used firearms to commit treason, they weren't thinking of police when they wrote the 2nd amendment. They wanted to keep the government in check by arming citizens to the teeth. It was the ultimate check and balance. It was the teeth behind the declaration of independence. (I love reading that document)
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 01:09 PM   #152
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I also question the wisdom of providing guns to students to avoid this sort of thing. It seems to me that highly trained law enforcement people with thousands of hours of training and apprenticeships under experienced officers are going to be hampered when they arrive at a scene to find armed students doing their own enforcement. How are they to tell the good guys from the bad guys? Why do we think students are going to be good at law enforcement with minimal training and experience when we require the law officials to have so much?
It has been shown again by Lott that citizens tend to outperform police in gun proficiency. I am guessing because the citizen chooses to practice.

really go read the book. It is the most comprehensive study ever done on the relationship between guns and crime. The truth is that most people argue based on fear, emotion or new stories.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 01:11 PM   #153
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Another problem is that people think that there are a hugh number of murders by firearms (not just handguns) in the US.... and that is just not correct... here are the murder by firearms per 1 MILLION people by country....

Yes, you are more than 28 TIMES more likely to be murdered by a firearm in the US than the UK, but it is still a low number.


Rank Countries Num.
#1 South Africa: 719.78
#2 Colombia: 509.80
#3 Thailand: 312.09
#4 Zimbabwe: 49.17
#5 Mexico: 33.79
#6 Belarus: 32.14
#7 Costa Rica: 31.37
#8 United States: 27.93
#19 Switzerland: 5.34
#20 Canada: 5.03
#21 Germany: 4.66
#24 Poland: 4.31
#26 Ireland: 2.99
#27 Australia: 2.94
#28 Denmark: 2.58
#29 Spain: 2.40
#31 New Zealand: 1.73
#32 United Kingdom: 1.03
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 01:19 PM   #154
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
Yes, you are more than 28 TIMES more likely to be murdered by a firearm in the US than the UK, but it is still a low number.
Even then, I am not too concerned how they kill be. I am more concerned that they don't kill me. And if carrying a gun will protect the innocent then I will carry one.

Here where I live it take the sherif almost an hour to responde to a 911 call. It takes 21 seconds to run accross a rooms and stab someone to death (I didn't make that up).

I generally believe people who are against guns either have an unrational fear of them, or they have no sympathy for the single mom who is being stalked.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 01:28 PM   #155
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by rw86347
It has been shown again by Lott that citizens tend to outperform police in gun proficiency. I am guessing because the citizen chooses to practice.

really go read the book. It is the most comprehensive study ever done on the relationship between guns and crime. The truth is that most people argue based on fear, emotion or new stories.
Lott’s affiliation with the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research should make his "study" suspicious to anyone who is actually seeking the truth. If you want to read what the other side thinks of his "research", try this.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/r..._mglc&menu=pro

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JOHN LOTT'S MORE GUNS, LESS CRIME
AN ALTERNATE Q&A

In 1996, John R. Lott, an Olin Fellow at the University of Chicago School of Law, and David B. Mustard published a controversial study which purportedly showed that states that loosened their carry concealed weapons (CCW) laws experienced a reduction in certain types of crime specifically because they made it easier for citizens to carry concealed weapons. In 1998, Lott published More Guns, Less Crime, a book based on his 1996 study.

It is important to note before detailing the major points of criticisms of Lott's book and study that he is unabashedly libertarian and may not be an unbiased source for research on gun-related issues. He has long been a proponent of the "Chicago School" theories of law and economics on subjects ranging from crime to the environment. In the past, he has argued that the benefit of a crime to a criminal can outweigh the harm that a crime inflicts on a society and, according to him, "the worst thing people can expect from dioxin is a bad rash." Two days after the Jonesboro schoolyard shootings, Lott called for arming teachers as the solution to preventing such tragedies. Most recently, Lott has argued that the hiring of more women and minorities in law enforcement has actually increased crime rates.

Both Lott's book and his study have been reviewed by academics from a wide range of disciplines from criminology to public health. Many of these scholars found serious, fundamental flaws in Lott's methodology and found his claims to be unsubstantiated. These researchers include Jens Ludwig at Georgetown University; Daniel Black of the University of Kentucky and Daniel Nagin at Carnegie Mellon University; Stephen Teret, Jon Vernick and Daniel Webster, all of Johns Hopkins University; Arthur Kellermann at Emory University; and Douglas Weil at The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

Unfortunately, while flaws in his research have been widely documented in scientific literature - and his findings dismissed by numerous, prominent researchers - the gun lobby has successfully used Dr. Lott's flawed conclusions to persuade several state legislatures to loosen CCW restrictions in the mid-90's.

Now, after several years in which the nation as a whole has enjoyed a declining crime rate, there is direct evidence that Lott's conclusions are wrong. A 1999 analysis of crime statistics conducted by The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence (formerly the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence) demonstrates that allowing people to carry concealed handguns does not mean less crime. The Center found that, as a group, states that rely on permissive concealed weapons laws as a crime fighting strategy had a significantly smaller drop in crime than states which looked to other means to combat crime rather than make it easier to obtain a concealed weapons permit.

In the 29 states that have lax CCW laws (where law enforcement must issue CCW licenses to almost all applicants), the crime rate fell 2.1%, from 5397.0 to 5285.1 crimes per 100,000 population from 1996 to 1997. During the same time period, in the 21 states and the District of Columbia with strict carry laws or which don't allow the carrying of concealed weapons at all, the crime rate fell 4.4%, from 4810.5 to 4599.9 crimes per 100,000 population. The decline in the crime rate of strict licensing and no-carry states was 2.1 times that of states with lax CCW systems, indicating that there are more effective ways to fight crime than to encourage more people to carry guns.

Furthermore, according to the CPHV analysis, violent crime actually rose in 12 of 29 states (41%) which liberalized their CCW laws over the five years beginning in 1992, compared to a similar rise in violent crime in only 4 of 22 states (18%) which did not change their CCW laws. The disparity in the decline is even more obvious for rates of gun violence. From 1992 to 1997 (the last five years for which data exists), the violent crime rate in the strict and no-issue states fell 24.8% while the violent crime rate for states with liberal CCW laws dropped 11.4%. Nationally the violent crime rate fell 19.4%.

If allowing more people to carry handguns is supposed to be such an effective crime fighting strategy, why did the crime rate go up in so many "shall issue" states - particularly when compared to states that employed other strategies to fight crime? The simple answer: allowing thousands of ill-trained citizens to carry guns everywhere they go has no positive effect on the crime rate. Research now substantiates what common sense has always argued: in a society riddled with gun-related crime, reducing the opportunities where guns can be used will actually reduce the rate of gun violence.

The following Q&A details other major points of criticism of Lott's book and study:
. . .
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 01:36 PM   #156
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
Actually it is better that you don't own one, if you are unsure of your ability to use it when needed.
Good point.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 01:38 PM   #157
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

For more discussion on Lott and the lack of validity of his work, read the discussion at:

http://www.time.com/time/community/t...ttr070198.html
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 01:45 PM   #158
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

And another critique of Lott's "research":

http://timlambert.org/guns/lott/
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 03:00 PM   #159
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by rw86347
I generally believe people who are against guns either have an unrational fear of them, or they have no sympathy for the single mom who is being stalked.
You know what happens when you assume...

I'm not afraid of firearms. I know how to use them and be safe with them. BUt in an urban or suburban/semi-urban setting, they are far more of a hazard than a help.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 03:02 PM   #160
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

"It takes 21 seconds to run accross a rooms and stab someone to death."

Actually, I believe the number "21" refers to law enforcement's "21 foot rule".

This is is the benchmark in feet (or 7 yards) that a person with a knife is considered close enough to take you out before you can draw a police weapon and respond well enough to stop him.

This relates to the belief that it the travel time for the 21' roughly equals "... the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass..."
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