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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 03:03 PM   #161
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Lott’s affiliation with the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research should make his "study" suspicious to anyone who is actually seeking the truth. If you want to read what the other side thinks of his "research", try this.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/r..._mglc&menu=pro
Of cource the brady bunch doesn't like Lott. His study actually hinders their desire for gun confiscation. The truth is that no one else has ever done as extensive of a study ... ever!

What I really found funney is that the brady bunch thought they would convince me to dismiss Lott because "Lott called for arming teachers as the solution". That is exactly the correct solution. More to the point this isn't about Lott's opinions, it is about the data he collected and what it points too.

How many more kids would have died after a teacher killed this mad man? Zero. It would have ended the whole episode. In stead of "thirty some dead" you would have read "two die before the mad man was killed".

All animals have a *right* to self preservation, that includes me and you. Don't you believe these young adults deserved to defend themselves?
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 03:22 PM   #162
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by rw86347
Of cource the brady bunch doesn't like Lott. His study actually hinders their desire for gun confiscation. The truth is that no one else has ever done as extensive of a study ... ever!

What I really found funney is that the brady bunch thought they would convince me to dismiss Lott because "Lott called for arming teachers as the solution". That is exactly the correct solution. More to the point this isn't about Lott's opinions, it is about the data he collected and what it points too.

How many more kids would have died after a teacher killed this mad man? Zero. It would have ended the whole episode. In stead of "thirty some dead" you would have read "two die before the mad man was killed".

All animals have a *right* to self preservation, that includes me and you. Don't you believe these young adults deserved to defend themselves?
My point was not discredit Lott or to convince you. Clearly that is a fool's mission. You think you know the answer and any argument that is in disagreement with your answer you conveniently disregard the source. Others think they have a different answer and that Lott's work is invalid.

My comments were in the support of my original post where I said
Quote:
If you don't like what the legitimate studies say, there are dozens of people torturing data, making up facts, and publishing results that you can embrace.
You believe the criminologists who do not see more guns as the answer are not legitimate. They believe Lott is not legitimate.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 03:39 PM   #163
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control


John Lott, an economist, wrote a book some years ago entitled More Guns, Less Crime. He purported to show that increases in gun ownership reduced crime in various areas.

He spends a lot of time defending his thesis.

He is criticized extensively, not just by the "Brady bunch." See Tim Lambert's website that SGeee mentioned and the Wikipedia entry regarding Lott .

From the wiki: A review of his book More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws in the New England Journal of Medicine states:

[Lott] finds, for example, that both increasing the rate of unemployment and reducing income reduces the rate of violent crimes and that reducing the number of black women 40 years old or older (who are rarely either perpetrators or victims of murder) substantially reduces murder rates. Indeed, according to Lott's results, getting rid of older black women will lead to a more dramatic reduction in homicide rates than increasing arrest rates or enacting shall-issue laws[1]


Personally, I am glad I didn't go to college with a bunch of rowdy, drug and alcohol using, homesick and hormonal students packing guns. Weigh the risks. I know a few judges and defense attorneys who carry guns. Weighing the risks, maybe it makes sense. But college students and teachers. Not.

We are dancing around a more difficult topic. The topic is mental illness. We are a country that values individual freedom so much we are not inclined to want to force treatment. Yet on the other hand, I am hearing calls for banning anyone with any history of any mental illness from having a gun. Took Prozac 10 years ago? No gun for you. See a family therapist about your marriage? Gun or no gun? Who is going to keep the list and what will put you on that list? We also cannot predict with any accuracy when a troubled person might become violent. The occurrences are so extraordinarily rare compared to occurrences of mental illness. IIRC, the only somewhat accurate predictor of future violence is past violence.

Some colleges have run into trouble with the American's with Disabilities Act for kicking out students from school who were suicidal or had other mental health issues.







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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 05:58 PM   #164
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

We do have our share of gun nuts up here but nowhere near the problem you have.

I feel safe walking anywhere in London ON at anytime.

rw86347 is one scary dude and I would recommend he continue his affiliation with Jackie Broyles!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 07:21 PM   #165
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

First we read (in part):

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Lott’s affiliation with the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research should make his "study" suspicious [sic] to anyone who is actually seeking the truth. . .
Then we read (in part):
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
. . . any argument that is in disagreement with your answer you conveniently disregard the source.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 07:24 PM   #166
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

so the pro gun people are against having more restrictions? even though you sensible gun owners would not likely be affected?

why not wait a month or even more if that means we can put some better controls in place so the lunies can't get them?

why not make it mandatory to pass a test that you know how to use the darn thing like a car?

hard to tell from the discussion!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 07:27 PM   #167
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

I've come to rely on samclem to criticize my posts without reading them -- or at least understanding them. Thank-you. You've done it again. You are becomming the most reliable thing about this forum.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 07:39 PM   #168
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I've come to rely on samclem to criticize my posts without reading them -- or at least understanding them. Thank-you. You've done it again. You are becomming the most reliable thing about this forum.
Hey, happy to oblige!
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-24-2007, 07:49 PM   #169
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Hey, happy to oblige!
See there. In another thread, one of the newbies accuses us of not being a happy group. At least samclem and I are laughing.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 08:58 AM   #170
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Brighteyed:
"so the pro gun people are against having more restrictions? even though you sensible gun owners would not likely be affected?  why not wait a month or even more if that means we can put some better controls in place so the lunies can't get them?  why not make it mandatory to pass a test that you know how to use the darn thing like a car?" 

Martha:
"We are a country that values individual freedom so much we are not inclined to want to force treatment.  Yet on the other hand, I am hearing calls for banning anyone with any history of any mental illness from having a gun.  Took Prozac 10 years ago?  No gun for you. See a family therapist about your marriage?  Gun or no gun?  Who is going to keep the list and what will put you on that list?"   

These two comments take us to the heart of the NRA and many gun owner's fears of restrictions.  It is believed (I adhear to this belief as well) that government is carnivorous and individual freedoms are meat.  Left to its own devices, all governments will, slowly but surely, become the "Big Brother" of nightmares.  Even WITH vigilance, it strives to consume rights one small "reasonable" bite at a time. 

As you ask, Brighteyed, why not require a "reasonable" test?  OK, fine.  But who writes the test?  Who grades it? 

Have you ever heard of tests being misused to deny rights?  Some states used to have tests that had to be passed before you could vote.  Ultimately that was decided to be illegal.  So were the tests of owning property or being a male.  There's a lesson there for all of us.   

Martha hits on the issue directly.  How "crazy" must one be to be denied a firearm?  Who gets to decide whether YOU are sane "enough"?  How much might that one day depend on how you voted in the last Sheriff's election, or the last "letter to the editor" you wrote? 

Government is power and it ultimately boils down to force.  Given that power corupts we must be very careful where we draw the lines that permit it to protect us. 


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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 11:40 AM   #171
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joss
Brighteyed:
"so the pro gun people are against having more restrictions? even though you sensible gun owners would not likely be affected? why not wait a month or even more if that means we can put some better controls in place so the lunies can't get them? why not make it mandatory to pass a test that you know how to use the darn thing like a car?"

Martha:
"We are a country that values individual freedom so much we are not inclined to want to force treatment. Yet on the other hand, I am hearing calls for banning anyone with any history of any mental illness from having a gun. Took Prozac 10 years ago? No gun for you. See a family therapist about your marriage? Gun or no gun? Who is going to keep the list and what will put you on that list?"

These two comments take us to the heart of the NRA and many gun owner's fears of restrictions. It is believed (I adhear to this belief as well) that government is carnivorous and individual freedoms are meat. Left to its own devices, all governments will, slowly but surely, become the "Big Brother" of nightmares. Even WITH vigilance, it strives to consume rights one small "reasonable" bite at a time.

As you ask, Brighteyed, why not require a "reasonable" test? OK, fine. But who writes the test? Who grades it?

Have you ever heard of tests being misused to deny rights? Some states used to have tests that had to be passed before you could vote. Ultimately that was decided to be illegal. So were the tests of owning property or being a male. There's a lesson there for all of us.

Martha hits on the issue directly. How "crazy" must one be to be denied a firearm? Who gets to decide whether YOU are sane "enough"? How much might that one day depend on how you voted in the last Sheriff's election, or the last "letter to the editor" you wrote?

Government is power and it ultimately boils down to force. Given that power corupts we must be very careful where we draw the lines that permit it to protect us.
My personal opinion about this subject:
People against any control know that paranoia would be a potential limitation to owning a gun.

When government started to ask for drivers to get a license. Did the same problem arise? Who decide who can get a license? The govt could prevent me the freedom to go somewhere fast too? Who keep the list? The asnwers are simple: The list is kept by law enforcement and by the DMV. Who can't get a license is defined by the people. And the requireemnts are changed from time to time by the people as well. The people representing YOU that you can fire or reelect every Two years.

Most people - me included - are not on any potential list of being prevented to own guns, drive a car, vote, sex-offendant etc. And they are planning to keep it this way. The list is there to protect them.

Making a list is not that difficult and would be subject to debate and hearings and what not. You would be able to give your opinion too. Call or write your representative...
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 12:05 PM   #172
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Perinova,

There is a vast difference between how the Bill of Rights views regulating cars - and regulating guns.

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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 12:18 PM   #173
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

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Originally Posted by Joss
Joss
Yes but I couldn't have made my point. :P

Thinking of it further my point is that the 2nd amendment could not possibly protect the right of everybody to own a gun; even though as you rightfully said it is a harduous task to define Who would be excluded from this right. Clearly previous offenders should be (Cho Seung Hui comes to mind as probably excluded now and -in hindsight- should have been before).
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 12:28 PM   #174
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Honestly America was built on the idea of checks and balances. Our forefathers understand that men are naturally greedy for power especially politicians. Our forefathers wanted to make sure their children would not be abused by government, as they were. These men used guns to protect their inalienable human rights. The second amendment was written during this time and for this reason. Among those rights, is the right of self preservation. Thomas Jefferson, a gun lover is his own right, said it best when he wrote..

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

All people have the right to self protection. I believe in principles, luckily the stats agree with them.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 12:36 PM   #175
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zipper
We do have our share of gun nuts up here but nowhere near the problem you have.

I feel safe walking anywhere in London ON at anytime.

rw86347 is one scary dude and I would recommend he continue his affiliation with Jackie Broyles!
At best you can argue that loose gun laws don't affect crime. However stats point out the obvious... Tight gun laws leave the law abiding defenseless.

The Failure of British Gun Control
For a very long time, gun control advocates have pointed to Britain as an example
of how peaceful and civilized a place America could be— if only we had strict gun control
laws like Britain. The logical error is pretty obvious: Britain’s low crime rates aren’t
because of gun control laws. Indeed, Britain’s crime rates were even lower before World
War I when any law-abiding and sane adult could buy a handgun, and get a permit to carry
it concealed.1
The gun control advocate’s argument was logically flawed, but at least one part of
the argument was correct: Britain had very little violent crime. But paradise doesn’t last
forever. In the period 1981-96, as American crime rates fell, British crime rates rose.
Britain now has higher rates of robbery, assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft than the
United States.2 (The report this article uses covers England & Wales only, because
Scotland has a somewhat different legal system, and so the statistics are not exactly
comparable. Northern Ireland, of course, has its own unique situation. If it were possible
to add Scotland and Northern Ireland into the figures, however, rest assured that the crime
statistics would even be worse.) By 1995, England & Wales had 1.4 times the robbery
rate of the U.S.; more than twice the assault rate of the U.S.; and nearly double the U.S.
burglary rate.


1 Colin Greenwood, Firearms Control: A Study of Armed Crime and Firearms Control in
England and Wales (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1972), 7-26; Robert Carr and Gordon
Campbell, The Control of Firearms in Great Britain: A Consultative Document (London: Her
Majesty’s Stationery Office, 1973; “Still unsafe on the streets”, The Economist, March 21,
1987; “The absence of acceptable authority”, The New Statesman, November 14. 1986.
2 Patrick A. Langan and David P. Farrington, Crime and Justice in the United States and
England and Wales, 1981-96 (Washington: Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1998), iii.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 12:42 PM   #176
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Perinova,

Glad that's cleared up.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 12:50 PM   #177
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joss
Brighteyed:
"so the pro gun people are against having more restrictions? even though you sensible gun owners would not likely be affected? why not wait a month or even more if that means we can put some better controls in place so the lunies can't get them? why not make it mandatory to pass a test that you know how to use the darn thing like a car?"

As you ask, Brighteyed, why not require a "reasonable" test? OK, fine. But who writes the test? Who grades it?

Have you ever heard of tests being misused to deny rights? Some states used to have tests that had to be passed before you could vote. Ultimately that was decided to be illegal. So were the tests of owning property or being a male. There's a lesson there for all of us.

Government is power and it ultimately boils down to force. Given that power corupts we must be very careful where we draw the lines that permit it to protect us.
There is a huge benefit to society to ensure proper use and sales of guns. Your reply does sound paranoid - you wouldn't have to be afraid of losing your right to own/use a gun if you follow the laws - take tests etc.

these polarized debates don't get us far. there is usually a mile of possible solutions in between but if we refuse to discuss or consider the options - for the "greater good" than what can we agree on as a society? do you want to get rid of traffic signals because they restrict your right to go wherever whenever?

There are reasonable restrictions put on all sorts of things, motorcycles, heavy equipment- etc. guns, given their high level of potential hazard should fall in that line.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 12:52 PM   #178
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Something else that confuses me...

How would more laws help?

Today mentally ill are not allowed to own or buy weapons, and this check is includded in a back ground checks.

Today you are not allowed to carry a gun on school property (with the exception of Utah state)

And the biggie ... You are not allowed to murder.

Would 3 more laws get the mentally ill to stop killing? How about 1,000,000 more laws?

Heck, even england (the land of no guns) has faital shootings, and stabings. Maybe they should outlaw knives and stones too.
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 01:02 PM   #179
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by rw86347


Heck, even england (the land of no guns) has faital shootings, and stabings. Maybe they should outlaw knives and stones too.
Too late http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk...00/3937253.stm

It's really sad to see that the once great empire of Britain has become a bunch of disarmed subjects living in a nanny state.


Bright Eyed - Whats wrong with "sensible" laws? How about that it isn't up to the feds to ALLOW me to defend myself. It really saddens me to see how willing people are to give up their rights.

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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control
Old 04-25-2007, 01:02 PM   #180
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Re: Virginia Tech shooting and gun control

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed
There is a huge benefit to society to ensure proper use and sales of guns. Your reply does sound paranoid - you wouldn't have to be afraid of losing your right to own/use a gun if you follow the laws - take tests etc.

these polarized debates don't get us far. there is usually a mile of possible solutions in between but if we refuse to discuss or consider the options - for the "greater good" than what can we agree on as a society? do you want to get rid of traffic signals because they restrict your right to go wherever whenever?

There are reasonable restrictions put on all sorts of things, motorcycles, heavy equipment- etc. guns, given their high level of potential hazard should fall in that line.
The solution isn't in the middle ground. The solution deals with the degradation of the family. Where were the parents, family and pastor for this kid. When communities are tight and close people notice these things. If that means moving to a "leave it to beaver" era then I am all for it.

What we really need is fathers that stay with their families.
We need communities which know each other.
We need sitting on the porch not in front of the TV.
We need friends, not watching friends.
We need churches that involve children and the real issues they face.
We need less violence in entertainment.
We need less porn.

I think a good barometer of how screwed up we are as a culture is the divorce rate. When that drops, maybe we will be able to fix these issues before they start.
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