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Old 06-05-2009, 09:18 AM   #21
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All your Walmart electrical stuff comes from China where factories like this one http://www.wired.com/images/slidesho...AN_10AB_05.jpg
Churn out everything from irons and kettles to stereos and tv's,not uncommon to have up to 30 different production lines going at the same time each production line producing the same product for dozens of different brand names 'the link is one of a dozen buildings at this site, http://davidlarkin.files.wordpress.c...th-workers.jpg
So now you know where your Walmart stuff comes from.
As ERD50 says, consider the alternative for these workers. Peddling junk on the street. Pedaling junk on the street. Slaving away in the rice paddies from sun up to sun down. Starving. Watching their children starve. Working in a factory, even a "sweatshop", is better than the typical 3rd world worker's alternatives. Not to say you can't have labor standards. But economics require companies to seek the lowest cost provider to stay competitive in the long term.
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:09 AM   #22
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I could argue both sides of the Walmart question, as I don't want to shop there, but I respect other people's desire/need to shop there.

Chinese factories are definitely sucky places to work, but perhaps better than alternatives--it would be hard for us to ultimately say for sure from our safe, minimum wage protected spot here in the "first world".

Walmart changed the way companies sell things--having sat in that dismal parking lot of a vendor waiting room on a memorable day and sold them some stuff, I'll say that they are neither as bad as you hear nor as good as you hear.

I don't go to Walmart mostly because it is too much GP (gen public) exposure. And a million children. I may dislike Walmart, but I really dislike children at Walmart.

One of the mower companies stopped selling to Walmart because they were constantly nibbling at them to reduce the quality and price until it just wasn't worth it to them anymore. I don't blame them, but you have to be bold as brass as a consumer products company to turn down the elephant in the room.
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:24 AM   #23
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Yes... I saw one of the news magazines where someone from a jeans company said specifically they used thinner material etc. to make them specifically for WM... to meet their price target or whatever they call it.. The sad part is they are labeled the same so you think you are getting something for less than the other store, but you really are getting less...
I'm curious what you mean when you say "they are labeled the same" ?

I'm out of my area of expertise here, DW does most of the clothes shopping, but I don't recall seeing any label on a pair of jeans that states the quality level of the fabric (like #/ream labels on paper). Label might say 90% cotton, 10% poly or whatever. I'd be surprised if they were misrepresenting that, they could be easily caught by the buyer (unless it is a conspiracy to pull one over on their valued customers), or by a testing lab (that would make some great headlines!).

So when I go into a store and see something marked much cheaper than in another store, I always question if the product is up to the standards I want. Depending on my needs, the cheapest thing may be exactly what I want. Othertimes, quality and longevity are paramount. Choice is good. And often, price is not a very good indicator of quality.

If the model # is identical, then yes, the consumer should expect the same product, regardless of price.

So when it comes to clothes, I think one has to look at the content label, and then judge by appearance and feel, no?

Caveat Emptor (that's Latin for "Let the buyer beware", for all us de-classe' people who may have voluntarily entered a WalMart store at some point ).

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Old 06-05-2009, 06:32 PM   #24
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As ERD50 says, consider the alternative for these workers. Peddling junk on the street. Pedaling junk on the street. Slaving away in the rice paddies from sun up to sun down. Starving. Watching their children starve. Working in a factory, even a "sweatshop", is better than the typical 3rd world worker's alternatives. Not to say you can't have labor standards. But economics require companies to seek the lowest cost provider to stay competitive in the long term.
I wasnt inferring anything other than where your electronic products are coming from and i'm sure most of the factory workers prefer the factory life above slaving away in a rice paddy.i just saw a documentary on Chinese factory life and these people are actually trying to put quality into what they make and are happy to get these factory jobs.
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Old 06-05-2009, 11:24 PM   #25
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Sweet! One less person in line in front of me at walmart. Yes, walmart does suck. I encourage everyone to avoid shopping at walmart.
I happily forgo my place in line for you...altho they do have a zillion lines. Part of the problem may be I'm not a frequent shopper and get lost in the aisles - they are soooo friggin big!

I do think the brand names selling there with lesser components are risking their image...I knew when I saw the commercials of major brands selling there they'd be something funny going on under the cover, no way it was the same thing.

While some may argue the wmart brings value, if the stuff they sell are actually lesser quality, then are you really getting a better value? Sure potato chips are potato chips (i think?) but if your undies wear out faster, or the toy falls apart sooner, you may indeed be paying more.
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Old 06-06-2009, 01:20 AM   #26
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....

If the model # is identical, then yes, the consumer should expect the same product, regardless of price.

So when it comes to clothes, I think one has to look at the content label, and then judge by appearance and feel, no?

Caveat Emptor (that's Latin for "Let the buyer beware", for all us de-classe' people who may have voluntarily entered a WalMart store at some point ).

-ERD50

From what I saw on TV (and that is all I can say... true or not)... it was the label that was the same... like model... say it was a 501 jean... then the WM 501 was not the same as the other stores 501...

Now, I do not go to WM much.... but I do not see that much of name brand stuff in clothes... but then again I am not looking either...
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Old 06-06-2009, 06:33 AM   #27
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I was in a local power equipment store last year (lawnmowers, chainsaws and such) and they had a lineup of Toro lawnmowers. The owner showed me two superficially identical models-- except one was the "old" Toro, and the other was what you'd buy at Home Depot. Cast body vs. stamped steel, better gears, all kinds of little stuff. People go to HD thinking they're buying their father's Toro. They're not. Apparently Toro has two different lines-- quality and discount. HD doesn't carry the quality line.
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Old 06-06-2009, 07:16 AM   #28
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When I was going to college I worked as a lawn mower mechanic (70's). We hated to work on the Sears stuff because they had cheapened up proprietary parts like a non adjustable (and virtually nonrepairable) carburetor. Evidently they were such a large customer to engine manufacturers that they could dictate such things.

I understand that the John Deere lawn tractors sold at Home Despot are also a unique, inferior model as compared to their "real" stuff sold at John Deere dealers.

That said, after working in the auto industry for a quarter century+, I know that efficient cost reductions are a real art - Toyota being the master. We always had their cars and trucks completely disassembled and attached to peg boards. Some of their parts were amazingly cheaply made, but optimized. A classic example was their battery terminals - just thin stamped, plated copper as opposed to our, then, beefy lead terminals. Now everyone uses this type of terminal. Simply removing content for cost reduction is a real losing game, especially for repeat customers that are disappointed when their "new" model has features than their "old" model.
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:33 AM   #29
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I was in a local power equipment store last year (lawnmowers, chainsaws and such) and they had a lineup of Toro lawnmowers. The owner showed me two superficially identical models-- except one was the "old" Toro, and the other was what you'd buy at Home Depot. Cast body vs. stamped steel, better gears, all kinds of little stuff. People go to HD thinking they're buying their father's Toro. They're not. Apparently Toro has two different lines-- quality and discount. HD doesn't carry the quality line.
And they are not paying the same price either, are they? If cast body vs stamped is important to you, do your research and get ready to pay the price delta. You can buy industrial grades stuff - it's out there, for $$$$$. If you go to the big box places, and shop by price, you need to make sure you are getting what you want.

I'm glad they have the"cheap" stamped stuff. I have a 1 acre lawn. I bought a cheap ($900 - that's cheap for something to handle an acre) tractor/mower 17 years ago, used it for 11 years, running it very hard (I cut the grass in the highest gear I can manage), and it required very little maintenance. Bought a replacement at Sears 6 years ago ($1,100) - much more power, better turning radius, superior in every way. So far, one $30 belt replacement ( I was pulling a weighted down lawn aerator at the time - quite a strain to put on this machine), and the battery is getting weak - routine stuff. I have no desire to pay more for better quality, I think they are doing just fine.

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That said, after working in the auto industry for a quarter century+, I know that efficient cost reductions are a real art - ..... A classic example was their battery terminals - just thin stamped, plated copper as opposed to our, then, beefy lead terminals. Now everyone uses this type of terminal. Simply removing content for cost reduction is a real losing game,
And over-designing is a loser's game, resulting in higher cost to the consumer, lost business to the seller, and higher environmental impacts on the earth.

I've never seen a thin, stamped, copper plated battery terminal fail. Less lead, less weight (better mpg), and possibly lower electrical resistance (depending on design).

I don't think we should be too quick to confuse "big & beefy" and "that''s how they did it in the old days" with "high quality".

I need me one of them big, beefy computers with those glass tubes that take up several rooms, and could heat my house (all summer!) - they just don't build 'em like THAT anymore!


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Old 06-06-2009, 10:02 AM   #30
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Going back to my (ovedone) theme from previous threads (on both washing machines and cars)-- I only wish the lawn equipment manufacturers would make their machines easily maintainable/repairable. I don't mind stamped components if they are strong enough and won't rust out. But what would induce me to favor one model over another and even pay a little more for a mower is a good owners/maintenance manual with troubleshooting guide, evidence that the machine is designed to last a long time and be fixed and cheaply maintained (good grease fittings or sealed bearings, easy-to-change belts, foam air cleaner that costs 5 cents to service vs. a $10 paper element, etc). All the marketing on appliances/cars/consumer machines of every type is focused on the price and on actual use (cutter deck width, horsepower, turn radius), it's rare to see an ad specifically pointing out features that lead to easy maintenance.

This is probably just a quirk of mine. Fewer and fewer people are willing to work on machines, or even see this as an important skill. Years ago, most American males (sorry ladies) knew how to do the basic maintenance on a car, (adjust a carb, set points, gap a plug--things cars don't even need anymore), and troubleshoot basic electrical problems. As these skills become less prevalent, manufacturers will see even less need to design equipment for owner servicing and we'll increasingly depend on specialists to fix our stuff, or we'll just throw the stuff away.
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:14 AM   #31
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But what would induce me to favor one model over another and even pay a little more for a mower is a good owners/maintenance manual with troubleshooting guide, evidence that the machine is designed to last a long time and be fixed and cheaply maintained (good grease fittings or sealed bearings, easy-to-change belts, foam air cleaner that costs 5 cents to service vs. a $10 paper element, etc).
My Sears lawn tractor meets those requirements pretty well. Manual with full parts list, exploded drawings, foam air cleaner, belt was easy to replace, grease fittings on the front axle (I looked for that, that was wearing out on my old 11 YO model). I think there is a reasonable TS guide, I'd have to look. I can't claim everything is serviceable, as I have not had much to service - but the hood removes easily to give better access.

I'm becoming a bit more of a Sears fan lately, seems like replacements parts are easy to get, reasonably priced, and they seem to carry them a long time. There is a Sears parts outlet 20 minutes away, so I can pick it up if needed and in stock (like the belt for my mower was).

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Old 06-06-2009, 10:30 AM   #32
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I'm becoming a bit more of a Sears fan lately, seems like replacements parts are easy to get, reasonably priced, and they seem to carry them a long time. There is a Sears parts outlet 20 minutes away, so I can pick it up if needed and in stock (like the belt for my mower was).
Thanks for the tip. I got a 30 YO Dynamark lawn tractor with the house we bought (11HP, 36" cut--they don't even make them this small anymore). I've got it running and I'm trying to decide if I can/should use a rider to mow our 1/3 acre lot. We've got too many nooks, crannies, and obstructions right now, a push mower is almost as quick. But, I'm modifying the landscaping and using the old rider to see if this is the way I want to go. If so, I'll be in the market for a small tractor soon, maybe one from Sears.
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:39 AM   #33
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While some may argue the wmart brings value, if the stuff they sell are actually lesser quality, then are you really getting a better value? Sure potato chips are potato chips (i think?) but if your undies wear out faster, or the toy falls apart sooner, you may indeed be paying more.
I haven't really been able to tell a difference in quality. Clothes - you get what you pay for. An $11 pair of jeans or pants probably won't be as durable as a $20 pair. You can usually tell this by feeling the weight and feel of the fabric, inspecting the stitches (double, triple along the seams, how's it folded?), how the clothes fit you, etc.

Brands mean almost nothing now for mass market consumer goods.

Consumer electronics is one area where I usually spend a little extra effort doing the research to determine what the best quality item for a given price that has the specifications that I need.

In general, quality and durability are not needed in many items. Clothes, electronics, and toys frequently gain functional obsolescence after a few years. Who cares if those bell bottoms bought in the 1970's were durable enough to last till today?

Welcome to the throw away society! You can either pay low prices for cheap plastic crap from China at Walmart/Target or pay higher prices for cheap plastic crap from China at more expensive retailers. Or pay much higher prices for superior products from whatever country of origin.
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:39 AM   #34
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I guess then I am doing well with my 35 or 40 Year old Montgomery Ward stamped steel lawn tractor with 36" mower deck. Got it free from a neighbor 20 or so years ago, with a blown engine. Bought a short block Briggs engine $185.-, installed, put on new belts, on the third battery. Works just fine. Even the tires are original, a bit cracked but full of slime, they hold air for a few months or so. Now that's cheap and frugal. Recently had to put in new axle bearings, $15.-, oh pain of the expense.

I don't think Montgomery Ward sold high end yard equipment.
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Old 06-06-2009, 02:52 PM   #35
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.......<snip>..........I don't think we should be too quick to confuse "big & beefy" and "that''s how they did it in the old days" with "high quality". .....<snip>.........


-ERD50
I think we are in violent agreement on this - I didn't mean to imply beefy was necessarily good - it all depends on the part, the stresses that it can be expected to endure and the implications of its failure..
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Old 06-06-2009, 08:33 PM   #36
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Fewer and fewer people are willing to work on machines, or even see this as an important skill. Years ago, most American males (sorry ladies) knew how to do the basic maintenance on a car, (adjust a carb, set points, gap a plug--things cars don't even need anymore), and troubleshoot basic electrical problems. As these skills become less prevalent, manufacturers will see even less need to design equipment for owner servicing and we'll increasingly depend on specialists to fix our stuff, or we'll just throw the stuff away.
In my case, it wasn't less desire to do the maintenance myself, it was the massively increased complexity of the car. I could do the basics, but when I started needing a computer readout to diagnose the problem, and had to remove all the A/C and emissions equipment to find the engine, it stopped being either fun or worth it. I think they did it on purpose.
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:01 PM   #37
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In my case, it wasn't less desire to do the maintenance myself, it was the massively increased complexity of the car. I could do the basics, but when I started needing a computer readout to diagnose the problem,

Indeed, here is a direct quote from the invoice for fixing my 2007 Ford Ranger. BTW, no charge since it is under warranty.

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Complaint: Hard shift into reverse when cold
Correction: Check operation. Harsh shift into rev and delayed engagement into drive. Check for codes. Unable to communicate with IDS, checked fuse. - blown. Replaced fuse. Can communicate with IDS. No codes. Check OASIS. TSB 08-5-2 related. Reprogram PCM with latest calibration as per TSB. Clear KAM as per TSB. Checked operation, OK.
So, the solution to what seemed to be a transmission problem was to re-program the computer. It worked. I'm a bit of a gearhead (at least with 50 year old cars) and I have no idea what an OASIS (other than the dictionary version with water and palm trees), IDS or KAM is. I'm guessing that a PCM is the car's main computer (Primary Control Module?) and TSB is 'Technical Service Bulletin'.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:16 AM   #38
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...............<snip>....I have no idea what an OASIS (other than the dictionary version with water and palm trees), IDS or KAM is. I'm guessing that a PCM is the car's main computer (Primary Control Module?) and TSB is 'Technical Service Bulletin'.
PCM = Powertrain Control Module. OASIS is an online resource for Ford dealers to quickly get a fix to a known problem. The TSB -technical service bulletin does the same thing, but more slowly. Not every OASIS message makes it to a TSB, as TSBs are an invitation for unnecessary warranty work. IDS is the integrated diagnostic system - the interface to the onboard computer. KAM = keep alive memory. If you disconnect the battery for a period of time the "learning" parts of the PCM revert to default settings for things like the idle calibration.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:41 AM   #39
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Intending to use it in a rental house for a year, I bought a discount no-name lawnmower at K-Mart 10 years ago and used it constantly for 8 years. When the engine started losing power & smoking, I bought a mid-range Sears. In for repairs in 1 month, and lots of interesting conversations with other lawnmower owners in the repair alcove. 1 use-month after that same problem, so I took it apart, ordered the parts at my own expense that they didn't properly repair, and it now works adequately. The K-Mart model? It's still my backup for the next Sears failure. My first consideration now is to buy stuff at that local-owned store. They'll tell me what I'm buying, let me make the quality/cost judgements, give me better service if it breaks, I'm supporting the local community, and I stay away from the big-box shopping ghettos so I save on psychiatric expenses. With a similar story about chainsaws, I've gone from an old-school "just go to Sears" to anything but. Easy parts access is like old VW beetles-- sure, they were easy to fix yourself. And it was a good thing, because you were always fixing them.
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:54 AM   #40
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Back to Wal-Mart (and Other Large Volume Stores) Electronics...

...There are some threads related to the original poster's question regarding Wal-Mart electronics (specifically HDTVs) at the www.avsforum.com that you might want to check out. Scroll down to the plasma/LCD/Flat panel discussions. Although, a number of these HDTV threads are associated with the differences between the Costco or Sam's Club models and the manufacturers' normal models. In addition, there are several threads about Best Buy-branded TVs (I think it is the Dynex line). Finally, there appears to be a difference between US, Canadian, and European HDTVs, even though they have the same model number. It appears that these large-volume stores have manufacturers cut out some of the options (like reducing the number of HDMI connections and not having as many user options as the 'name brand' version).

I like the audio/visual discussions (HDTVs, speakers, DVD players, home theater systems, and so forth) at that forum, because you learn that some of the 'low end' stuff works as well (or sometimes better) that the higher end models from the same manufacturer, but for hundreds or thousands less. For example, I learned that the TV I happened to buy was considered 'low end' for a plasma HDTV, but performed pretty much as well as the same manufacturer's high end stuff, but I ended up paying thousands less .
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