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Old 03-16-2009, 06:04 PM   #21
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In the case of marijuana, this is ridiculous.
Why?
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Old 03-16-2009, 06:44 PM   #22
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DAVID PEEL & THE LOWER EAST SIDE

Anyone remember this guy in NYC, from the late 60's early 70's.

Up against the wall motherf---ker.....


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Old 03-16-2009, 09:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Payin-the-Toll View Post
Has anyone watched that CNBC special on Marijuana Inc., or what ever it was called, concerning the emerald triangle in northern California. Very interesting show. Don't have high-def for that channel, but the guy who was selling medicinal stuff, looked like it was $45 a 'gram'--oh-chi-wa-wa----man, that's expensive. They also mentioned that people in California are allowed to grow 6-18 plants or possess a certain amount for medicinal or 'recreational' purposes--is that right??
Yes, I watched the show, and it's a vision of cash to me. I don't use any drugs, but if I get canned and can't find a job in the next year, I plan to head back to CA to learn the trade. BTW, in Oakland, you're allowed to grow 72 plants. At $5000/per plant, that's decent money.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200904/pot-school
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:29 PM   #24
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Instead of saying what should not be done or just legalize "drugs" propose a system that address the complexity of the issue and how it will make things better.
I still am not sure why this is FIRE related, but it is one of my hot button topics, so I'll respond. I personally believe we would be in a better position if all of the drugs on your list were legal. Managed by the government maybe (not my first choice), but not illegal creating black markets, criminal combines, street violence, opportunities for terrorist organizations to make money from us, huge numbers of relatively harmless individuals in prison, etc.

However, I know this isn't even remotely feasible in our society now, and maybe never will be. So I would be satisfied if the most harmless of all the standardly used drugs (including alcohol and tobacco), marijuana, was legalized. I don't have specific numbers. However, I suspect legalization of pot would wipe out more than 50% of all the drug related problems we are currently experiencing. That would leave coke/crack as the major issue. The rest are very minor in numbers.

So, anyway, there's my answer. My only comment about the War on Drugs is a quote (probably wrongly) attributed to Benjamin Franklin - The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. By that definition the War on Drugs is insane. By any definition except one used by the ONDCP the War on Drugs is a failure. I wish your thread title had some accuracy. It would be in the country's best interest if it was over.
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dex View Post

Rusty said:
Quote:
In the case of marijuana, this is ridiculous.
Why?
Most of it's grown in the USA these days, cirumventing much
of this unpleasantness (like corruption in foreign countries).
The really nasty guys are far more interested in trafficing
hard drugs, which are more profitable and easier to smuggle
(more compact and less odiferous).

There is a growing consensus that drugs should be treated more
as a medical problem than a legal one. I have a personal theory
that it'll require a Republican president to do this, much as it
required Nixon to normalize relations with China - because a
Democrat is just too vulnerable to right-wing trash (like Rush)
on this sort of issue. Of course, D or R, it'll take someone with
a LOT of integrity, like the old McCain (I miss him).

At any rate, there is enormous harm done by not recognizing
the difference between marijuana and other drugs. Never mind
the people who could be helped medically by it. I've read that
the Bush administration gave roughly equal priority to marijuana
and meth; as a consequence, the latter has become a huge problem.
(Does this sound familiar, ignoring something that is a HUGE problem,
because of wasting effort on somethinng that's not nearly as big a
problem, perhaps not a problem at all ?!?)
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by RustyShackleford View Post
Most of it's grown in the USA these days, cirumventing much
of this unpleasantness (like corruption in foreign countries).
The really nasty guys are far more interested in trafficing
hard drugs, which are more profitable and easier to smuggle
(more compact and less odiferous).
I've searched and couldn't find any info saying most is grown in the USA. I couldn't find much on where is comes from.

Untitled Document
  • Where does Marijuana come from?
The majority of marijuana available in the US is smuggled in from Mexico and is a low potency, commercial grade product. The high potent marijuana is usually home grown or smuggled in from Canada. Recent seizures indicate that the content of THC has increased in the home grown product. Law enforcement data indicate that arrests for marijuana possession are up across the nation. The Bureau of Justice Survey indicates that about 12% of prisoners in the nation are serving time for a first marijuana related offense.
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:58 PM   #27
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I still am not sure why this is FIRE related, but it is one of my hot button topics, so I'll respond. I personally believe we would be in a better position if all of the drugs on your list were legal. Managed by the government maybe (not my first choice), but not illegal creating black markets, criminal combines, street violence, opportunities for terrorist organizations to make money from us, huge numbers of relatively harmless individuals in prison, etc.
We know what the world looks like with the current system (see above how I think it should change). How would it look under your proposal?

The legalization stance might sound hip but in reality it is the hopeless, insensitive the pain of people, and lack of concern alternative. It says people can not change.

I do not think the USA has truly accepted its responsibility for its part of the drug trade and harm it has caused around the world. (It is easier for the USA to accept its part in global warming.) The users need to take part of that responsibility and they need help to stop.

I can name at least 15 people who died as a result of drugs; 20 that have screwed up their lives due to drugs; and then there are those around them that were hurt. I started drinking alcohol at 12. It was easy to get - stand outside a liquor store and ask someone to buy you some wine for you and your friends. I'm glad I couldn't get drugs that easy. I wouldn't be alive.

Faces of Meth | Meth Photos | Effects of Meth
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:46 AM   #28
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I started smoking pot at 13, tried everything that had been invented by my mid thirties, and know numerous people that have died due to alcohol, both from driving and from poisoning. Anecdotal evidence, as I believe you have said before, is mostly meaningless. I know beyond doubt that pot is less dangerous than alcohol. The only person ever killed by pot had a bale of it fall on him. And IMHO pprison is far more dangerous to people and their loved ones than any drug. As you say, people can change, but their lives are pretty much ruined after a prison sentence.

However, religious arguments are futile. I'd rather try to convince someone that the '85 Bears were a better team than the '62 Packers. You've made up your mind, I've made up mine, and neither will make any difference in the long run. This thread, which has nothing to do with early retirement, has nowhere to go. I'm going to mellow out with my second favorite drug, a nice 12 year old Laphroaig, and dream of the time I can legally inhale a vaporized houseplant along with it, for a combination buzz better than the sum of its parts. Good night.
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Old 03-17-2009, 01:41 AM   #29
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I started smoking pot at 13, tried everything that had been invented by my mid thirties, and know numerous people that have died due to alcohol, both from driving and from poisoning. Anecdotal evidence, as I believe you have said before, is mostly meaningless. I know beyond doubt that pot is less dangerous than alcohol. The only person ever killed by pot had a bale of it fall on him. And IMHO pprison is far more dangerous to people and their loved ones than any drug. As you say, people can change, but their lives are pretty much ruined after a prison sentence.

However, religious arguments are futile. I'd rather try to convince someone that the '85 Bears were a better team than the '62 Packers. You've made up your mind, I've made up mine, and neither will make any difference in the long run. This thread, which has nothing to do with early retirement, has nowhere to go. I'm going to mellow out with my second favorite drug, a nice 12 year old Laphroaig, and dream of the time I can legally inhale a vaporized houseplant along with it, for a combination buzz better than the sum of its parts. Good night.
I agree with everything you say, except for your implication that the
topic is inappropriate. That's what "Other Topics" is for, a place for
people to talk about non-FIRErelated topics and thus save the other
parts of the forum from digression.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:15 AM   #30
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You've made up your mind, I've made up mine, and neither will make any difference in the long run.
I haven't made up my mind; I am open to other options. However, you have not provided a vision of what you "legalization" would look like in the real world.
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Old 03-18-2009, 02:44 PM   #31
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I haven't made up my mind; I am open to other options. However, you have not provided a vision of what you "legalization" would look like in the real world.
Although I couldn't agree less with most of what you've said about
marijuana, and legalization, here is an article that supports what you've
been saying - about hard drugs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/wo...as/18peru.html
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Old 03-18-2009, 06:15 PM   #32
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I haven't made up my mind; I am open to other options. However, you have not provided a vision of what you "legalization" would look like in the real world.
How about a marijuana section in the liquor store?
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Old 03-18-2009, 06:16 PM   #33
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Although I couldn't agree less with most of what you've said about
Thanks for the article.
We do not have to agree - we only need to present our ideas in an logical, insightful and respectful manor.
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Old 03-18-2009, 09:00 PM   #34
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Here's a step in the right direction:

Attorney general signals shift in marijuana policy
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Old 03-18-2009, 09:29 PM   #35
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Taking illegal drugs is not a victimless activity.
My sentiments exactly...
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Old 03-18-2009, 10:59 PM   #36
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Here's a step in the right direction:

Attorney general signals shift in marijuana policy
Ya, five years for following the law of the state seems about right.
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:10 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by harley View Post
I still am not sure why this is FIRE related, but it is one of my hot button topics, so I'll respond. I personally believe we would be in a better position if all of the drugs on your list were legal. Managed by the government maybe (not my first choice), but not illegal creating black markets, criminal combines, street violence, opportunities for terrorist organizations to make money from us, huge numbers of relatively harmless individuals in prison, etc.

However, I know this isn't even remotely feasible in our society now, and maybe never will be. So I would be satisfied if the most harmless of all the standardly used drugs (including alcohol and tobacco), marijuana, was legalized. I don't have specific numbers. However, I suspect legalization of pot would wipe out more than 50% of all the drug related problems we are currently experiencing. That would leave coke/crack as the major issue. The rest are very minor in numbers.

So, anyway, there's my answer. My only comment about the War on Drugs is a quote (probably wrongly) attributed to Benjamin Franklin - The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. By that definition the War on Drugs is insane. By any definition except one used by the ONDCP the War on Drugs is a failure. I wish your thread title had some accuracy. It would be in the country's best interest if it was over.
For what it's worth I agree with you and RustyS (and mostly with Ziggy too) on this topic. I don't use pot myself. I tried it in my youth but didn't enjoy the effects. But I find the hypocrisy regarding pot vs. alcohol to be truly ridiculous. Maybe it will require a generational change. I think there are still too many people hung up on the hippy images from the 60s and 70s.

We need to stop wasting huge amounts of resources on this. IMO we ruin more lives in the prosecution of this drug war against pot than would be the case if it were legalized.

With that said, some hard choices need to be made about what products should be made illegal. Meth, heroin and some others are truly destructive. There's no perfect solution, as usual.
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Old 03-19-2009, 01:02 PM   #38
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For what it's worth I agree with you and RustyS (and mostly with Ziggy too) on this topic. I don't use pot myself. I tried it in my youth but didn't enjoy the effects. But I find the hypocrisy regarding pot vs. alcohol to be truly ridiculous. Maybe it will require a generational change. I think there are still too many people hung up on the hippy images from the 60s and 70s.

We need to stop wasting huge amounts of resources on this. IMO we ruin more lives in the prosecution of this drug war against pot than would be the case if it were legalized.

With that said, some hard choices need to be made about what products should be made illegal. Meth, heroin and some others are truly destructive. There's no perfect solution, as usual.
I think heroin should be made legal for terminal patients.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:14 PM   #39
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I'd like to apologise for the delay in my response. Dex asked for a reasoned vision and so I wanted to think about it some. I know what I believe, but putting it into words is more difficult than I thought. Most people either already agree with me or aren't interested in listening.

There are two aspects of this conversation - if marijuana and other low impact drugs were legalized, and if all street drugs were legalized. I'll answer in two posts. First, because it's so easy, marijuana, hash, and anything else that is basically equivalent to or less dangerous than alcohol. Some people would include psychedelics (shrooms, peyote, etc) and ecstasy in this class. But I'll stick with pot and hash for now. And I'm going to completely ignore the political aspects of the issue, since they have nothing to do with reality, only perception. I'm also going to pretty much disregard the immense number of (non-criminal) people whose careers and lifestyles are dependent on the Drug War, and who would fight any change that might effect them financially. By far the biggest opponents of the end of prohibition are the criminals who currently make billions per year on filling the orders.

I believe if these items were available legally, the major societal changes would be a huge decrease in

1) the number of people in jail whose lives are ruined and whose assets are confiscated
2) the multi-billions of dollars wasted on our current (and unsuccessful) prohibition
3) the deaths (civilian, innocent and guilty, and police) associated with the SWAT style arrest attempts of users and low level dealers. Also the incredible overcrowding of our court system. And maybe the use of snitches trading lower sentences for turning in other people, some of whom are very low level or completely innocent.
4) the exposure to the criminal underworld of people who just want to have a little fun
5) the massive profits of said criminals, who would lose their markets overnight. This would also have the effect of de-glamourizing criminals and causing young minority children to stop seeing criminal life as the easiest way to succeed.
6) the preying on children of said criminals, while trying to create a class of customers
7) the waste of resources by LE, who could then focus on real crime (violence, robbery, rape, murder, ponzi schemes)
8) the profits of the black market which may have been used to finance terrorism
9) the excuse of the drug war in regards to the suspension of many constitutional and civil rights
10) the massive amount of street violence currently related to the prohibition.

I would like to make a point about that last item. I used to think the violence would end as soon as the prohibition ended. However, I think violence as a way to resolve disagreements has become so ingrained in society at this point that it would take a number of years to end it. This leads to some other aspects of ending prohibition that I believe would be a positive effect.

1) The huge taxable income from the sales to current (and a couple of new ) users.
2) The ability to redirect money currently expended on enforcing prohibition to try to resolve basic social problems - poverty, inequality, education. I know more money won't solve these, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. And many of these issues are the basis of the various addictions prohibition is trying to resolve. Also, by far the largest number of casual drug users (as well as abusers and addicts) are white. If drugs were legal it might help end the huge disparity in arrests of minorities, possibly allowing hundreds of thousands of fathers to be involved in their families, while holding down legitimate jobs. And it might help change society's image of minorities as criminals and drug abusers. Over time.

I also am aware that there will be some negative issues. The point about telling our kids it's OK to use drugs should be handled by education, just as it is now with tobacco and alcohol. It would be equally effective, or ineffective, depending on your POV. I would have absolutely no problem with not allowing the corporate entities to advertise the products, or to limit them just like with tobacco and alcohol. But the limitations should be right in line with beer and wine for pot, and liquor for hash. It's only fair.

That's about where I am with this part. Feel free to rebut or question.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:25 PM   #40
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I truly don't have a complete answer for the legalizing all drugs question, although my gut instinct is that it would still be better than our current social situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------
This paragraph is more regarding pot, but valid for hard drugs too:

I recognise that there would be issues at first, with increased use and experimentation. But after a few years or a decade or so things would normalize. At that point I believe our society would be in such better shape as to appear to be a paradise compared to what is happening now. I believe the solution is important enough that it deserves a fair chance. Prohibition has been in place for almost a century, so a couple of decades of an alternative experiment shouldn't be too much to ask.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that there will be people with problems, and those problems would effect others. However, pretty much anyone who wants currently illegal drugs can get them without any problems now. So we have that situation now, and we have a legal system capable of dealing with people who overstep the bounds. Driving under the influence (real, not from smoking a joint 10 days earlier), family abuse, violence, improper public behavior, etc all have consequences now, and there doesn't need to be any real change in the laws for street drugs.

I believe any drug with therapeutic use should be legal, even if it had to be prescribed. As Khan says, heroin should be legal for terminal patients. What do they have to lose, and why shouldn't they be able to choose their preferred medication? And who cares if they ft addicted. They can't take it with them.

In keeping with this, I believe doctor's should be able to prescribe pain medication at levels they think is appropriate, without having to worry about DEA interference, loss of license, and jail. Again, there are already ways to deal with doctors who abuse their power, and they should be used when required. Cocaine, MDMA (ecstasy), steroids, lsd, speed, downers and others all have medical uses, and could be prescribed if they were legal and warranted.

As far as social use of harder drugs, I think they can be a lot of fun. I do recognise the addictive aspect of some of them, as well as the potential physical effects of long term use. Again, I'm not sure how to apply sales and availability issues to these. But if someone wants to trip out and watch Fantasia or do a little Valium to kick back after a bad day, jail is a pretty severe consequence. I truly believe that over time education would effectively limit the number of people using, much less abusing the drugs. The abusers would need to be dealt with through education and rehab. If their actions required it, LE would come into play. Just as it does now with anyone who breaks the laws.

I'd actually be quite interested in hearing other's ideas about the harder drugs being legalized. It would be an intellectual exercise only. I suspect it would require decades of lower level drug legalization before this issue could even be raised seriously.
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