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Old 01-21-2011, 05:11 PM   #81
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Take away: 'Children are like a box of chocolate; you never know what you are going to get.'

I've never had children, happy I didn't and the world is probably better off also.

Having watched the children of others grow up; I would say the take away is a bit off. I've noticed that there are some very strong correlations between the personalities of the parents and the child.

So I'm wondering if some parents of wayward children have seen some of their own or their spouse's wayward behavior in their children?
Well, in my case, I think DS has two issues. The first is/was dropping out of school, quitting a decent job, not doing much of anything for 2 years (but he didn't live with us, so we didnt have much to say about it.) I believe most of that was a result of the anxiety and depression he was dealing with. He is now back in school and working regularly, etc. But the second issue (and the one we talk about the most here) is not having a clue or concern about money and paying bills.

In that respect, DS is nothing like DH or I. Neither of us were ever like that. I cannot think of anyone in DH's family who was like that either. But - I have a sister who has gone through 2 bankruptcies and still overspends. I pray DS's concept of money changes as he continues to get on his feet - yet I worry that he will be just like my sister. We will always provide warmth and food, if necessary - but we have made it clear he will not get money from us.

My brother, my sister, and I were raised the same. DH and I LBOM and look forward to ER. My brother is a regular guy, works hard, buys more toys than I would, but pays all his bills, raised two kids, has some money put away for retirement etc. And then there is my sister..... Three kids and we pretty much cover the spectrum.

My son and daughter were raised the same way. DD is 1.5 years out of college, but asks my advice for where to put her extra money, has maxed out her ROTH 2 years, puts a bunch in her 401K, and won't buy anything unless it is on sale.

Your "take away" is incredibly accurate. Raise 2 kids the same way - you may get the same outcome, you may get different outcomes. Raise 2 kids differently - you may get the same outcome, you may get different outcomes. Sometimes nature takes over, sometimes nuture. Or at least that is my theory. And nature may go to a place in your lineage you may not even be aware of.....
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:28 PM   #82
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I don't forget the genetics, but things are sometimes more complicated than that. I am myself an adoptee and now have one biological child and two adopted children. My two adopted children are biological siblings. One of them is the son we are talking about and the other his sister. The difference is that the son was almost 9 when we adopted him and our daughter was only 3. They are actually quite different in personality. He, of course, remembers a great deal about his first family and his early life. She remembers nothing. So, yes, certainly genetics matters but it isn't everything.

As an adoptee myself I was always very different from my adoptive parents. To myself I often attributed it to my being adopted (I was adopted at birth). Yet, when I was in my early 40s, I searched for and found my birthmother. There are certainly things that are similar. My adoptive mother has always sort of felt that being a night owl is a moral failing and nothing but laziness would keep someone from getting up by 7:00. It was sort of nice to find out that my birthmother is a similar night owl to me. OTOH, I always sort of thought that the fact that I always tending to be a little overweight and struggled with weight was probably genetic. Come to find out that my birthmother struggles to stay above 100 pounds....
Great info... and I will agree that being in a family until 9 will leave memories... but IMO it does not change the basic personality of a person... I think these are inate... why is someone a go getter and someone else just sits around doing nothing...

You only mentioned your mother... you only got half your DNA from her... your father might have huge problems with weight and struggles...

As for me... I got my mom's bad eyes and my fathers allergies... both were pretty smart and all of us kids are also... I did not get my dad's bald head (but I am pretty thin at the crown and the temples are a lot bigger now than before)... so I can see parts of me from both parents... both my parents worked hard and got things done... I tend to want to put off everything until I NEED to do it... then I work hard to get it done... (one of my sisters has this and she calls it her deadline mentality... if we do not have a deadline we do not do it)...


I do agree that you should put him on the road to success... it will not cost a lot of money and as long as you do not continue it then it will be up to him...
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:52 PM   #83
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Great info... and I will agree that being in a family until 9 will leave memories... but IMO it does not change the basic personality of a person... I think these are inate... why is someone a go getter and someone else just sits around doing nothing...
Well, my DSS also had an unpredictable childhood including abandonment from one parent...I think some research says personality is fully ingrained by age 7 or 8 - so I think the dual situation of environment/upbringing and personality are working together to imprint feelings of security or insecurity, esteem or lack of esteem (for self or others), and love are things they carry with them into their adulthood. Some unravel those things in their teens, or twenties or eighties. That depends on themselves, upbringing, resources, environment etc.

I heard an Alice Walker quote once that talked about adversity/struggle - it was something about how some rise to the occasion and become stronger and others are crushed by it...it was really powerful to me as I think it is really easy to be judgmental of those that are crushed by it (of which I am more likely to judge, but that quote shed new light for me).

One of the things I know for sure is that because my DSS had some deep things happen to him at a young age is that it creates a fog of confusion and insecurity -> which for men especially translates into anger. When you are a kid and can't control nor understand what is going on or why - it can get jumbled and very very easily misinterpreted...I also had an ol boyfriend who had similarly confusing childhood and he would get really horrible migrains and other physical issues that were tied to repressing certain anguish from the past...he began to understand it later in his twenties but it took a lot of work...
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:33 PM   #84
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The assurance with which our resident experts dispense advice is pretty funny.
+1

But it seems OP is wise enough to know that advise based on anecdotal examples involving the advise giver's own childhood might be an interesting quick read but shouldn't be generalized.

Lots of good discussion though.........
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:34 PM   #85
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I don't forget the genetics... certainly genetics matters but it isn't everything... when I was in my early 40s, I searched for and found my birthmother. There are certainly things that are similar. My adoptive mother has always sort of felt that being a night owl is a moral failing and nothing but laziness would keep someone from getting up by 7:00. It was sort of nice to find out that my birthmother is a similar night owl to me. OTOH, I always sort of thought that the fact that I always tending to be a little overweight and struggled with weight was probably genetic. Come to find out that my birthmother struggles to stay above 100 pounds....
Genetics are huge but that doesn't mean you will be like your parents or your siblings. The documentation of the role of genetics comes from studying identical twins raised apart. The similarities are spooky. Everything from temperament, to career choice, to type of spouse selected seems largely inherited *fraternal twins don't show such similar traits). That doesn't mean upbringing has no effect but it does counsel giving yourself a break if your children don't turn out exactly as you hoped your nurturing would lead them to be.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:42 PM   #86
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Good points. Thanks for the insight.

I did all that bad stuff in HS, so that's why I'm trying to shield him from it, but he is going to encounter all the drugs and drinking sooner or later so I guess I just need to tell him to get ready for it.
Our youngest did a food service job in a nursing & rehabilitation center at 14. Helping on trayline, delivering food carts, doing dishes, mopping the kitchen. There are never guarantees, but it (healthcare) can be a more controlled environment than a restaurant.

After two weeks on the job (these were only 4-hour shifts), she announced she would be going to college when the time came.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:43 PM   #87
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DH and I really are agreed on the approach to take. He thinks giving him anything (cashwise) is just throwing money away. I agree that he is right but still want to do it and he is cool with that.
Wow, when I was reading your description of your son, I thought you were talking about my 19 year old stepson.......fits his situation almost exactly (except that our son could not even get motivated to attend college, despite our agreement to pay for at least his first year at community college). My wife (his mom) and I went through some of the same discussions you and your husband are having now. We also provided some cash for a while (with stipulations attached), tried everything to make him realize he was headed for disaster, etc.. So far, nothing has worked, and as far as I know he is working part-time (minimum wage job) and living with friends now (he's been asked to leave three other homes so far, for his unwillingness to follow even simple rules at each place). His car is barely running, and he's driving it with no insurance, because he's gotten several citations (and a few minor accidents), and clearly has no ability to pay for car insurance (or car maintenance and repairs, for that matter). He used to call us occasionally when he was completely broke and beg for another small "loan", but in recent months he hasn't even done that (he knows the response he would get). At this point, there is really nothing we can do for him. Hopefully, he'll wake up at some point and realize what a mess his life is and try to turn it around, but that is really out of our control. I could see this whole situation developing while he was in high school, by the way (he showed little interest in school and barely graduated, despite our persistent efforts to work with him to do better). We thought he might wake up after graduating and seeing most his friends head off for college, but it didn't happen.

I don't have much good advice for you, unfortunately. I just hope your son's situation turns out better than ours has (so far, anyway).
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:53 PM   #88
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After two weeks on the job (these were only 4-hour shifts), she announced she would be going to college when the time came.
Isn't it great to see the lights come on? A timely reality check can be a fantastic motivator.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:35 PM   #89
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Wow, when I was reading your description of your son, I thought you were talking about my 19 year old stepson.......fits his situation almost exactly
Wow, back at you. Sounds extremely similar.

I really think sometimes you just can't save people from themselves. Just two things in the last day really drive that home.

The other day we got the refund from paying for DS's spring college tuition but the check was payable to DS. Long story short the only practical way to get the money was to deposit it to his bank account and then for him to give back to us when it cleared.

So when he went to the bank to transfer it back to us, we left $425 in his account telling him it was for his first month's rent for the room he is going to move into Monday.

So yesterday he gets auto insurance and the insurance company debits his bank account for the amount. I am OK with that (as we had said we would pay the first month's insurance). With his permission I have online access to his bank account and go to see the amount of the insurance so I can transfer that amount to him and he will again have the $425 to pay his rent.

To my surprise, I see that he has withdrawn $50! I ask him about it since I know he has to pay rent on Monday. He says he had to do it to buy gas (not like he really needs $50 for that -- suspect some of it went to eating out with friends). He thinks he will get $50 as his final paycheck from the job he just left..but he only worked a few hours his final week so that is doubtful. He also insists that he can move into the room and pay the landlord any time before the end of the month. He wonders why I think that sounds unlikely...

He totally doesn't understand why we think he showed poor judgment withdrawing the $50 or why we think he should have talked to us before doing it (even though we had said we were leaving the $425 for his rent ....)

At this point, I don't know what will happen or if it will get the $425 by Monday. We are giving him two more months of rent but will only pay it shortly before the due date so he's on his own to replace the $50 that he "borrowed"

Then he has an expensive cell phone. We have told him he needs to pay us the $53 January bill for it by Feb. 1 or we will cancel the phone (and we will have to pay a cancellation fee). At that point he could sell the phone and then get an inexpensive pre-paid phone. But, no. He insists that he will keep the phone and will pay us by Feb. 1. Bear in mind this is someone who had to spend $50 of his rent money to buy gas.....
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:54 PM   #90
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He probably thinks you think it is poor judgment to take out the $50 because you and DH are over-reactors and are always on his case...I would doubt he understands any bit of the logic behind what you are saying or lack of reality in what he is saying, or the mounting evidence against him that his decisionmaking is faulty! It's just further evidence to him that you two are on his case for every little thing - what's $50?

There must have been some evolutionary wisdom to sending them off/out of the house to college or otherwise at this age! I'm already making sure the next two will have some reason to go by then...even as much as I absolutely adore their adorable antics and they think I'm the coolest thing ever (for a few more years at least!) and declare they will never leave me! I can't imagine they will roll their eyes at me when they hit puberty...

My son actually told us that when adults talk to him (and that includes us!) he imagines one of those toy monkeys clapping the cymbals together - now if that isn't powerful imagery!
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:20 AM   #91
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He probably thinks you think it is poor judgment to take out the $50 because you and DH are over-reactors and are always on his case...
How did you manage to eavesdrop at my house?
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:29 AM   #92
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Our youngest did a food service job in a nursing & rehabilitation center at 14. Helping on trayline, delivering food carts, doing dishes, mopping the kitchen. There are never guarantees, but it (healthcare) can be a more controlled environment than a restaurant.

After two weeks on the job (these were only 4-hour shifts), she announced she would be going to college when the time came.

Many years ago I knew someone whose teenage son was, umm, ambivalent about going to college. So, one summer when he was late in high school, she suggested that he work construction. He and a buddy worked all summer in construction. When fall started, he told his mom that he thought he would go to college. He's a dentist now.

Of course with my DS that is the subject of this thread, when he got his first fast food job I hope that the low pay, standing all the time, irregular hours with no guarantee of work, etc. would be motivating to him to get an education so he could find something better....
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:21 AM   #93
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Some of the same with our younger son, hard to offer any advice from afar but best of luck. We helped sometimes and other times, said no. Not really sure what the moment was that made the difference but he's turned completely around now, finished college paying for it on his own and through his employer and works full time at a job he likes and is good at. Hang in there!
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:35 AM   #94
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He probably thinks you think it is poor judgment to take out the $50 because you and DH are over-reactors and are always on his case...I would doubt he understands any bit of the logic behind what you are saying or lack of reality in what he is saying, or the mounting evidence against him that his decisionmaking is faulty! It's just further evidence to him that you two are on his case for every little thing - what's $50?

There must have been some evolutionary wisdom to sending them off/out of the house to college or otherwise at this age! I'm already making sure the next two will have some reason to go by then...even as much as I absolutely adore their adorable antics and they think I'm the coolest thing ever (for a few more years at least!) and declare they will never leave me! I can't imagine they will roll their eyes at me when they hit puberty...

My son actually told us that when adults talk to him (and that includes us!) he imagines one of those toy monkeys clapping the cymbals together - now if that isn't powerful imagery!

+1 on this...


Some people just are different... go read Fuegos thread about his SIL... probably about to lose everything, but continues down the path she chose..

I do agree that he might be immune to your talk... you are the blah, blah, blah of adults like on the Snoopy cartoons... he does not 'hear' you...

I would suggest paying anything you want paid directly to the place it is owed... do not let it go through your sons hands... because you will have the vig of him needing gas etc... pay what you said you would pay (including putting in the extra $50)... but do not try and tell him the errors of his ways..... right now, I would suggest just letting the train wreck happen and see where the pieces land... stop trying to be a parent.... sure, this is hard to do... and I might not be able to do it myself if the time comes.... but I hope I will.....
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:48 AM   #95
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He ... decided he doesn't want to go to school this semester and wants to later get an associates degree in culinary arts.
People in restaurants and kitchens work awfully hard for their money--just want to say good luck to him!
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:55 AM   #96
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My brother use to work with children. He told me once that you could almost define maturity as the ability to see the consequence of your actions. He said most of the kids he worked with, up to the age of 19, could not do that. The unanswered question, how do you teach maturity?
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:40 AM   #97
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My brother use to work with children. He told me once that you could almost define maturity as the ability to see the consequence of your actions. He said most of the kids he worked with, up to the age of 19, could not do that. The unanswered question, how do you teach maturity?
On several Dr. Phil shows he has spoken about maturity (understanding potential consequences). He says the part of the brain that controls this does not fully develop until age 25. Obviously, some people mature sooner, but these 'train wreck' types are ones who may be maturing more slowly.

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Old 01-22-2011, 09:59 AM   #98
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Then he has an expensive cell phone. We have told him he needs to pay us the $53 January bill for it by Feb. 1 or we will cancel the phone (and we will have to pay a cancellation fee). At that point he could sell the phone and then get an inexpensive pre-paid phone. But, no. He insists that he will keep the phone and will pay us by Feb. 1. Bear in mind this is someone who had to spend $50 of his rent money to buy gas.....
Ahhh, cell phones for kids........don't even get me started on that topic! Biggest mistake we ever did was buy a cellphone for this kid when he was a junior in high school (the contract was under our name; he was an "authorized user"). He did have a part-time job and promised to make the montly payments to us each month, so we thought it would work out okay. Well, it didn't......of course his monthly bill went from about $50 to $90+, because of all the ringtones, downloads, etc, etc (that he was not supposed to be doing). So, he couldn't make the payments after a while, and we had to basically cover them for the last few months, until the contract was up. Well, we cancelled the contract, and told him he was on his own if he wanted another cell phone, but guess what.......he went down to the local Verizon store and told them "we" wanted to renew the contract, and THEY DID IT FOR HIM! (under our name again). You can imagine my surprise (and anger), so I call Verizon immediately and tell them what happened, and I want it cancelled! (again). They say that they can't really do that........all the contracts state (in fine print somewhere) that an "authorized user" can renew a contract, under the old name, even after cancellation, if it's within 30 days of cancellation (or something like that). So, now we march down to the local Verizon store and tell them what happened, and demand that they cancel the contract immediately. The manager of the local store is a little more understanding than the Verizon rep. I spoke with on the phone, so he did it.......but by company policy, he apparently didn't have to.

Lessons learned:

1) it's a very bad idea to buy a cellphone (or anything involving monthly payments) for your kid, and put it in your name. Chances are very good there will be problems with the payments.

2) never ever deal with Verizon again (for me, anyway). It's very possible that they are all the same, though (regarding authorized users and their ability to renew a contract without permission from the person whose name is on the contract).
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:16 AM   #99
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On several Dr. Phil shows he has spoken about maturity (understanding potential consequences). He says the part of the brain that controls this does not fully develop until age 25. Obviously, some people mature sooner, but these 'train wreck' types are ones who may be maturing more slowly.

omni
Well, I would not want to be in conflict with the great Dr. Phil, but to me it seems that a huge difference between kids that please their parents and kids who trouble their parents is how tractable they are. Some people are just naturally rebellious, others may not be particularly mature but they go with the program anyway, almost by default.

Another thing that is easy to miss is how much less forgiving the world, and particulary the US, is today when compared to say when I was a teen. When I put my self into the shoes of a young guy today looking at the overall hypocrisy and self serving bullsh*t everywhere he turns I have no trouble understanding why anyone might just take a pass, or rebel, or tune it out completely.

Even this board is made up of people who were turned off enough by what roles society offered to them that they hunkered down, held their noses and headed for the exits, either with enough money to live a posh life or with a dertermination to just hang on somewhere, anywhere, until death do them claim.

Might work out fine for those who are so inclined, but not exactly "I have a dream" level and not too likely to fill a young person with enthusiasm, except perhaps with enthusiasm for making his or her own escape as soon as possible.

I have no problem understanding why a lot of young people do drugs; my main problem is understanding why some of them don't.

Ha
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:33 AM   #100
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