Watching the trainwreck

[KM]

This analogy doesn't really hold water....

I'm guessing that the parents have been giving 'swimming lessons' for years. And lately have been throwing out plenty of PFDs (personal flotation devices) in the form of cash handouts.

omni

Meh....in a way it does, and if nothing else, it made me laugh.

I think the point was that "throwing a kid out and making it clear he has no one to fall back on "might" be the best thing for them. But it also could be the worst thing. How many parents are willing to take that risk with their kid?

I think 99.99999% of the posters are in agreement that constantly supporting your kid and giving them money is a really poor idea. But seeing as most people here are also financially-savy, I suspect few here would ever do it. The difficult part is not only knowing when to start and how hard to push the "tough love"....but also what "tough love" to use.

Parents can turn off the money without throwing kids out of the house and making them believe they have no one to turn to. We haven't given DS money since before he went to college (except tuition). But we have allowed him to live here, as long as he is working full-time or in school. When I hear people say things like "let them sleep in their cars", I cringe. Could I ever get to that point? Maybe. But things would have to be a lot worse than they are before I thought that was a good solution to the problem.

 

[Texas Proud]

Meh....in a way it does, and if nothing else, it made me laugh.

I think the point was that "throwing a kid out and making it clear he has no one to fall back on "might" be the best thing for them. But it also could be the worst thing. How many parents are willing to take that risk with their kid?

I think 99.99999% of the posters are in agreement that constantly supporting your kid and giving them money is a really poor idea. But seeing as most people here are also financially-savy, I suspect few here would ever do it. The difficult part is not only knowing when to start and how hard to push the "tough love"....but also what "tough love" to use.

Parents can turn off the money without throwing kids out of the house and making them believe they have no one to turn to. We haven't given DS money since before he went to college (except tuition). But we have allowed him to live here, as long as he is working full-time or in school. When I hear people say things like "let them sleep in their cars", I cringe. Could I ever get to that point? Maybe. But things would have to be a lot worse than they are before I thought that was a good solution to the problem.

Just as a point of clarification.... I think that the people who say 'let them sleep in their cars' are the ones who also have said that they have been given any number of chances (in my nephews case it was dozens of times... with 3 of my sisters and even others...)... at some point and time you have to go the tough love route...

And you also have to be ready to lose them completely... remember there are a lot of criminals out there... I would bet that most of their parents would rather them not be doing that.... but it happens...

 

[Nords]

Parents can turn off the money without throwing kids out of the house and making them believe they have no one to turn to. We haven't given DS money since before he went to college (except tuition). But we have allowed him to live here, as long as he is working full-time or in school. When I hear people say things like "let them sleep in their cars", I cringe. Could I ever get to that point? Maybe. But things would have to be a lot worse than they are before I thought that was a good solution to the problem.

I think the point that's missing is that most "tough love" parents have tried a number of softer approaches before resorting to their final attempt.

Sleeping in cars (or crashing on "friend's" couches) seems like a much more productive approach than letting them stay in the house and hikikomori on their parent's largesse.

 

[Letj]

I think that this is a big problem. You screw up a few times as a young adult and your can destroy your job prospects. My spouse was arrested back around 1970 for dealing drugs. In the end, even though the accusations were true, the charges were dropped with some wheeling and dealing. He never disclosed the arrest when looking for work and no one ever checked. It was frightening enough for him that he quit messing around with small time dealing. Today, he likely would have gone to prison and his life would have destroyed.

The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people. It does not consider the folly of youth which is sad indeed. There are otherwise good people who can have their entire lives ruined because of one bad judgment. Someone once said to me that hewas glad that he didn't grow up in this country because just about everybody he knew did something stupid and could have ended up in jail for what his country (European country) considered petty and minor and wouldn't arrest you for - drunkness on the street, getting into fights providing that no one was seriously hurt, petty stealing, marijuana use, etc.

 

[Nords]

The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people.

If I get caught with drugs in my luggage then I'd much rather be in the good ol' USA than in Mexico, Thailand, Japan, Indonesia, France, Spain, Great Britain, Germany... the list goes on & on.

Not sure about Canada or the Netherlands.

 

[Purron]

I think the point that's missing is that most "tough love" parents have tried a number of softer approaches before resorting to their final attempt.

Sleeping in cars (or crashing on "friend's" couches) seems like a much more productive approach than letting them stay in the house and hikikomori on their parent's largesse.

Wow. I had to google those terms While I agree, I believe teens often make statements like "I'll sleep in my car" to get their parents attention and sympathy. It's a way to try to gain control of the situation. If I think way back to when I was a teen, I remember a similiar thought process. "If I don't get my way, I'll do XYZ and then they'll be sorry."

 

[Nodak]

The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people. It does not consider the folly of youth which is sad indeed. There are otherwise good people who can have their entire lives ruined because of one bad judgment. Someone once said to me that hewas glad that he didn't grow up in this country because just about everybody he knew did something stupid and could have ended up in jail for what his country (European country) considered petty and minor and wouldn't arrest you for - drunkness on the street, getting into fights providing that no one was seriously hurt, petty stealing, marijuana use, etc.

+1

 

[Nords]

Wow. I had to google those terms

It's getting a lot of press on this island...

 

[Letj]

If I get caught with drugs in my luggage then I'd much rather be in the good ol' USA than in Mexico, Thailand, Japan, Indonesia, France, Spain, Great Britain, Germany... the list goes on & on.

Not sure about Canada or the Netherlands.

Just to clarify, I am not just referring the the legal system and one's legal rights. I am also referring to the difficulty in restarting your life with any sort of conviction on your records. Many jobs in the US requires a having a clean background, not the same in the rest of the world. In fact, in the United Kingdom for example, you can even get a government job with a prior conviction.

 

[Purron]

Just to clarify, I am not just referring the the legal system and one's legal rights. I am also referring to the difficulty in restarting your life with any sort of conviction on your records. Many jobs in the US requires a having a clean background, not the same in the rest of the world. In fact, in the United Kingdom for example, you can even get a government job with a prior conviction.

I interviewed a young man once for a job. On the application he indicated he had been arrested. The charge was "indecent exposure". What happened was he and some buds were walking back to their car from a bar and he ducked into an alley to relieve himself. We felt bad, but HR said we couldn't hire him with that in his background. Seemed a little extreme to me.

 

[Martha]

I interviewed a young man once for a job. On the application he indicated he had been arrested. The charge was "indecent exposure". What happened was he and some buds were walking back to their car from a bar and he ducked into an alley to relieve himself. We felt bad, but HR said we couldn't hire him with that in his background. Seemed a little extreme to me.

That stinks.

 

[kumquat]

If I get caught with drugs in my luggage then I'd much rather be in the good ol' USA than in Mexico, Thailand, Japan, Indonesia, France, Spain, Great Britain, Germany... the list goes on & on.

Not sure about Canada or the Netherlands.

Good thing. If you got caught in Canada, we'd just ship you south anyway and let your country handle it. Your drug laws are much tougher and sentences harder.

See this guy. Canada never even charged him (not that I think they should have). We let the US act as our proxy.

 

[Dreamer]

I have been through these problems with my DS also. We helped many times and then quit for the most part. It took him quite a while to mature. He is a really good person, but he is still hurt by a lot of the earlier bad decisions he made. He is now 32. He barely graduated high school, even though we had him tested and had a tutor for him in middle school. He went to college for about 5 years, but never graduated and is still paying back the college loans. We paid for his college until he started taking out loans because everybody did it. We paid off a credit card early on when he got into trouble. He never did get him degree, but works steady at a fairly low paying job. I feel your pain.

 

[KM]

Just as a point of clarification.... I think that the people who say 'let them sleep in their cars' are the ones who also have said that they have been given any number of chances (in my nephews case it was dozens of times... with 3 of my sisters and even others...)... at some point and time you have to go the tough love route...

And you also have to be ready to lose them completely... remember there are a lot of criminals out there... I would bet that most of their parents would rather them not be doing that.... but it happens...

I suspect we are in violent agreement.
I'm certainly not passing judgement on those that have had to eventually go that route. My only point was not every situation is the same. A kid who has used up multiple chances is very different than one who screws up at 19-20 and thought he could make it on his own. I get the impression Kat's son fits the latter category....at least for the time being.

 

[KM]

Wow. I had to google those terms While I agree, I believe teens often make statements like "I'll sleep in my car" to get their parents attention and sympathy. It's a way to try to gain control of the situation. If I think way back to when I was a teen, I remember a similiar thought process. "If I don't get my way, I'll do XYZ and then they'll be sorry."

I am (obviously ) one of the stonger dissenters of the "let them sleep in their cars" option - but I also think you are probably right on this. Some kids can be pretty manipulative.

My position has always been, I would not make them sleep in their car. But, if my kid ever said to me: "Well, I don't like your rules, so I am moving out and I will sleep in my car if I have to", I would probably respond "Well, that's about the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but if the time comes you smarten up, you know where you can find us for a warm bed and hot meal. Just don't expect money."

 

[Texas Proud]

I interviewed a young man once for a job. On the application he indicated he had been arrested. The charge was "indecent exposure". What happened was he and some buds were walking back to their car from a bar and he ducked into an alley to relieve himself. We felt bad, but HR said we couldn't hire him with that in his background. Seemed a little extreme to me.

Interesting... but from the legal course I took (for business)... the prof gave an example that was a bit more... but why even an innocent charge should be fought... his example was some college kids were driving and 'mooned' some people... got charged with indecent exposure and pled guilty... did not want to fight....

The problem is what you describe.... and the lawyer said that (at least at the time) the charges were not correct... indecent exposure was exposing yourself to someone for 'sexual gratification'... in your example, there was not sexual gratification involved... and in the mooning... same thing... it was just a prank...

It is funny because I was talking to a lady who works for me and said that we did not hire someone because they had a DWI on their record when they were young... she said 'I had one also'... either hers was not recorded or our background check did not catch it... I told her not to mention it to anybody...

 

[Texas Proud]

I am (obviously ) one of the stonger dissenters of the "let them sleep in their cars" option - but I also think you are probably right on this. Some kids can be pretty manipulative.

My position has always been, I would not make them sleep in their car. But, if my kid ever said to me: "Well, I don't like your rules, so I am moving out and I will sleep in my car if I have to", I would probably respond "Well, that's about the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but if the time comes you smarten up, you know where you can find us for a warm bed and hot meal. Just don't expect money."

And what would you do if they broke every rule you had

What would you do if they stole some of your things and hocked them to get money


I am not saying the OP's son is here... but she has said that he does not follow the rules... simple as they are...

And the second example is from a friend of one of my sisters.... it was a brother that lived with him and stole... the brother brought charges against him and he was sent to jail (it was not his first time with brother or others in the family)...

The continuum is pretty long... the question is where on it the person is... and what will be your response to them...

I can say that as long as my kids are trying to get ahead... I will support them, house them and feed them... if they think they can go through life just being lazy on my couch.... they will learn that it will not happen...

 

[Katsmeow]

And what would you do if they broke every rule you had

When DS first floated the possibility of living here for the spring (with him paying us half of his paycheck), I was willing to consider it but had misgivings since I knew he didn't much like rules. But, I didn't say no and asked him to think about what he really wanted to do. In the meantime we gave him the very minimal rules for being home Christmas vacation.

He was the one who decided not to follow those rules and decided to move out. The problem I have with ever letting him move back in is that he doesn't want to follow rules. I guess I can't exclude the possibility that he would have a serious attitude adjustment.

In the meantime...he still obviously thinks we are just interfering in his life.

The other day I suggested that he ask his new insurer to verify if his policy has comprehensive/collision. Ordinarily I don't recommend that for older cars but he has no reserves and if his card got stolen or something he would have no way to get to work. He told me he called the insurer and they said it did have it. Well, I noticed later on that he only had one call to the insurer (his only phone is his cell phone as we have no landline). This is one of those things where he decided he didn't need to call and ask so just lied to me and told me did.

Or, today, he was watching TV and I called him in to ask him about the scheduling of his move (it is tomorrow) and he mutters under his breath "Oh, God, oh, God..." when I call him in. I just ignore that ask him about the move. He also tells me that his landlord says he can pay his rent any time before the end of the first 30 days (i.e. rent is due at the end of 30 days not at the beginning). I told that definitely was unique in my experience and I hoped he was right and if he wasn't to call us and we could talk about what he could do (remember he spent $50 of his rent money). I then told him that DH and I were going to give him his $425 rent for the next 2 months (that is on top of paying his first month's rent, deposit, and first month of auto insurance). He just says OK, not a word of thanks or anything. Just really irritated me.

I wish him well and hope it works out for him and he obviously feels that we know nothing and he resents any suggestions we make. At the same time, he clearly feels entitled to get the money we are giving him and shows no appreciation for it. Sigh.

 

[Nords]

I wish him well and hope it works out for him and he obviously feels that we know nothing and he resents any suggestions we make. At the same time, he clearly feels entitled to get the money we are giving him and shows no appreciation for it. Sigh.

Yup, it's time for him to go!

Nobody else considers him an independent grownup, so he has to prove it by rebelling against you guys. The best way to "win" that battle is to kick him off the battlefield.

FWIW, our daughter spent a substantial portion of her Christmas break apologizing to us parents for her behavior as a high-school senior. Living the dorm life (and working out with NROTC's Marine gunny sergeants) made her appreciate the opportunities that she'd blown off in her final year here.

Hopefully someday you'll get a similar apology from a mature adult upon whom you no longer feel obligated to ponder the judicial risks of justifiable homicide...

 

[Bestwifeever]

My friend's son called her a fornicating drill sergeant when she was encouraging him to do his laundry at his own condo at age 27. I don't think either of them has learned to appreciate the other!

 

[haha]

My friend's son called her a fornicating drill sergeant when she was encouraging him to do his laundry at his own condo at age 27. I don't think either of them has learned to appreciate the other!

But your friend can be proud of one thing- her son definitely has an advanced vocabulary!

Ha

 

[Texas Proud]

When DS first floated the possibility of living here for the spring (with him paying us half of his paycheck), I was willing to consider it but had misgivings since I knew he didn't much like rules. But, I didn't say no and asked him to think about what he really wanted to do. In the meantime we gave him the very minimal rules for being home Christmas vacation.

He was the one who decided not to follow those rules and decided to move out. The problem I have with ever letting him move back in is that he doesn't want to follow rules. I guess I can't exclude the possibility that he would have a serious attitude adjustment.

In the meantime...he still obviously thinks we are just interfering in his life.

The other day I suggested that he ask his new insurer to verify if his policy has comprehensive/collision. Ordinarily I don't recommend that for older cars but he has no reserves and if his card got stolen or something he would have no way to get to work. He told me he called the insurer and they said it did have it. Well, I noticed later on that he only had one call to the insurer (his only phone is his cell phone as we have no landline). This is one of those things where he decided he didn't need to call and ask so just lied to me and told me did.

Or, today, he was watching TV and I called him in to ask him about the scheduling of his move (it is tomorrow) and he mutters under his breath "Oh, God, oh, God..." when I call him in. I just ignore that ask him about the move. He also tells me that his landlord says he can pay his rent any time before the end of the first 30 days (i.e. rent is due at the end of 30 days not at the beginning). I told that definitely was unique in my experience and I hoped he was right and if he wasn't to call us and we could talk about what he could do (remember he spent $50 of his rent money). I then told him that DH and I were going to give him his $425 rent for the next 2 months (that is on top of paying his first month's rent, deposit, and first month of auto insurance). He just says OK, not a word of thanks or anything. Just really irritated me.

I wish him well and hope it works out for him and he obviously feels that we know nothing and he resents any suggestions we make. At the same time, he clearly feels entitled to get the money we are giving him and shows no appreciation for it. Sigh.

Sorry to hear... I agree it is time to move him out... heck, I would help him pack and move... I would also pay the rent (as it is not going to hurt you that much financially)... and just not worry about the appreciation...

I would also invite him over for family get togethers and parties... but I would not allow him to come and go as he pleased (if you do not call ahead and get permission to come, do not expect to be let in the house).. he might want to come over and have you do the laundry or feed him when he is low on funds....


I remember when I was just out of the house... I used to go over and wash my clothes at the parents house... it was hard to keep my mom away... she wanted to interfere with my washing... I had to tell her NOT to do it... but it worked out just fine... but I always called before going...

 

[Westernskies]

The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people. It does not consider the folly of youth which is sad indeed. There are otherwise good people who can have their entire lives ruined because of one bad judgment. Someone once said to me that hewas glad that he didn't grow up in this country because just about everybody he knew did something stupid and could have ended up in jail for what his country (European country) considered petty and minor and wouldn't arrest you for - drunkness on the street, getting into fights providing that no one was seriously hurt, petty stealing, marijuana use, etc.

Unfortunately, our lives are defined by the choices we make.

Some make better decisions than others, some think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. If you don't want to live by the rules (home and our society) , be prepared to accept the consequences, pretty simple, really. BTW, I believe that public drunkeness, assault, theft, and illicit drug use, etc. are still illegal here in the US, and I don't think we should just look the other way when people decide our laws don't apply to them. But maybe that's just me.

Following this line of thinking a step further, maybe we need to extend the "birth lottery" argument to those who have not been convicted of criminal behavior, and figure out a way to make them compensate society for their success?

 

[Letj]

Unfortunately, our lives are defined by the choices we make.

Some make better decisions than others, some think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. If you don't want to live by the rules (home and our society) , be prepared to accept the consequences, pretty simple, really.

A bit self-righteous no? How many young people, particularly young men have not made some stupid mistakes because they just were not thinking? Mooning someone would not get you arrested anywhere as far as I know, well may be a woman might get arrested in Iran or Saudi Arabia, I don't know. What good is served in society by arresting a young man for indecent exposure and giving him a record for life because he mooned someone? There are just some stupid laws here that you might be breaking without even knowing. And yes, there are some laws that are not even worth the paper they're written on and unfortunately, we are bound by them.

 

[Westernskies]

A bit self-righteous no? How many young people, particularly young men have not made some stupid mistakes because they just were not thinking? Mooning someone would not get you arrested anywhere as far as I know, well may be a woman might get arrested in Iran or Saudi Arabia, I don't know. What good is served in society by arresting a young man for indecent exposure and giving him a record for life because he mooned someone? There are just some stupid laws here that you might be breaking without even knowing. And yes, there are some laws that are not even worth the paper they're written on and unfortunately, we are bound by them.

Sure, I made a few stupid mistakes when I was a kid (and as a young adult), and suffered the consequences for them; I never considered that any laws I didn't like didn't apply to me or that I was somehow above the law. It's part of accepting personal responsibility for one's actions, the central theme of this thread.

The "stupid laws" that you mentioned in your earlier post that you considered being inconveniently "bound by" were: assault, theft, public drunkenness, and illegal drug use- a whole lot different than the kid mooning in your second example, and should be treated as such, IMO. We already have different ways of handling juvenile and adult infractions and criminal records to handle youthful indescretions.

And, as a society we're still defined by the choices we make, we all get the same rule book. How many do-overs do we owe people who "just aren't thinking" in your world?

"Sorry, your honor, I didn't mean any harm, I guess I just wasn't thinking. Yeah, I did beat him up and steal his shoes, but I was stoned and drunk at the time"