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Old 01-23-2011, 09:18 PM   #141
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I interviewed a young man once for a job. On the application he indicated he had been arrested. The charge was "indecent exposure". What happened was he and some buds were walking back to their car from a bar and he ducked into an alley to relieve himself. We felt bad, but HR said we couldn't hire him with that in his background. Seemed a little extreme to me.

Interesting... but from the legal course I took (for business)... the prof gave an example that was a bit more... but why even an innocent charge should be fought... his example was some college kids were driving and 'mooned' some people... got charged with indecent exposure and pled guilty... did not want to fight....

The problem is what you describe.... and the lawyer said that (at least at the time) the charges were not correct... indecent exposure was exposing yourself to someone for 'sexual gratification'... in your example, there was not sexual gratification involved... and in the mooning... same thing... it was just a prank...

It is funny because I was talking to a lady who works for me and said that we did not hire someone because they had a DWI on their record when they were young... she said 'I had one also'... either hers was not recorded or our background check did not catch it... I told her not to mention it to anybody...
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:25 PM   #142
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I am (obviously ) one of the stonger dissenters of the "let them sleep in their cars" option - but I also think you are probably right on this. Some kids can be pretty manipulative.

My position has always been, I would not make them sleep in their car. But, if my kid ever said to me: "Well, I don't like your rules, so I am moving out and I will sleep in my car if I have to", I would probably respond "Well, that's about the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but if the time comes you smarten up, you know where you can find us for a warm bed and hot meal. Just don't expect money."
And what would you do if they broke every rule you had

What would you do if they stole some of your things and hocked them to get money


I am not saying the OP's son is here... but she has said that he does not follow the rules... simple as they are...

And the second example is from a friend of one of my sisters.... it was a brother that lived with him and stole... the brother brought charges against him and he was sent to jail (it was not his first time with brother or others in the family)...

The continuum is pretty long... the question is where on it the person is... and what will be your response to them...

I can say that as long as my kids are trying to get ahead... I will support them, house them and feed them... if they think they can go through life just being lazy on my couch.... they will learn that it will not happen...
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:13 AM   #143
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And what would you do if they broke every rule you had
When DS first floated the possibility of living here for the spring (with him paying us half of his paycheck), I was willing to consider it but had misgivings since I knew he didn't much like rules. But, I didn't say no and asked him to think about what he really wanted to do. In the meantime we gave him the very minimal rules for being home Christmas vacation.

He was the one who decided not to follow those rules and decided to move out. The problem I have with ever letting him move back in is that he doesn't want to follow rules. I guess I can't exclude the possibility that he would have a serious attitude adjustment.

In the meantime...he still obviously thinks we are just interfering in his life.

The other day I suggested that he ask his new insurer to verify if his policy has comprehensive/collision. Ordinarily I don't recommend that for older cars but he has no reserves and if his card got stolen or something he would have no way to get to work. He told me he called the insurer and they said it did have it. Well, I noticed later on that he only had one call to the insurer (his only phone is his cell phone as we have no landline). This is one of those things where he decided he didn't need to call and ask so just lied to me and told me did.

Or, today, he was watching TV and I called him in to ask him about the scheduling of his move (it is tomorrow) and he mutters under his breath "Oh, God, oh, God..." when I call him in. I just ignore that ask him about the move. He also tells me that his landlord says he can pay his rent any time before the end of the first 30 days (i.e. rent is due at the end of 30 days not at the beginning). I told that definitely was unique in my experience and I hoped he was right and if he wasn't to call us and we could talk about what he could do (remember he spent $50 of his rent money). I then told him that DH and I were going to give him his $425 rent for the next 2 months (that is on top of paying his first month's rent, deposit, and first month of auto insurance). He just says OK, not a word of thanks or anything. Just really irritated me.

I wish him well and hope it works out for him and he obviously feels that we know nothing and he resents any suggestions we make. At the same time, he clearly feels entitled to get the money we are giving him and shows no appreciation for it. Sigh.
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:37 AM   #144
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I wish him well and hope it works out for him and he obviously feels that we know nothing and he resents any suggestions we make. At the same time, he clearly feels entitled to get the money we are giving him and shows no appreciation for it. Sigh.
Yup, it's time for him to go!

Nobody else considers him an independent grownup, so he has to prove it by rebelling against you guys. The best way to "win" that battle is to kick him off the battlefield.

FWIW, our daughter spent a substantial portion of her Christmas break apologizing to us parents for her behavior as a high-school senior. Living the dorm life (and working out with NROTC's Marine gunny sergeants) made her appreciate the opportunities that she'd blown off in her final year here.

Hopefully someday you'll get a similar apology from a mature adult upon whom you no longer feel obligated to ponder the judicial risks of justifiable homicide...
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:56 AM   #145
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My friend's son called her a fornicating drill sergeant when she was encouraging him to do his laundry at his own condo at age 27. I don't think either of them has learned to appreciate the other!
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:02 AM   #146
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My friend's son called her a fornicating drill sergeant when she was encouraging him to do his laundry at his own condo at age 27. I don't think either of them has learned to appreciate the other!
But your friend can be proud of one thing- her son definitely has an advanced vocabulary!

Ha
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:02 AM   #147
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When DS first floated the possibility of living here for the spring (with him paying us half of his paycheck), I was willing to consider it but had misgivings since I knew he didn't much like rules. But, I didn't say no and asked him to think about what he really wanted to do. In the meantime we gave him the very minimal rules for being home Christmas vacation.

He was the one who decided not to follow those rules and decided to move out. The problem I have with ever letting him move back in is that he doesn't want to follow rules. I guess I can't exclude the possibility that he would have a serious attitude adjustment.

In the meantime...he still obviously thinks we are just interfering in his life.

The other day I suggested that he ask his new insurer to verify if his policy has comprehensive/collision. Ordinarily I don't recommend that for older cars but he has no reserves and if his card got stolen or something he would have no way to get to work. He told me he called the insurer and they said it did have it. Well, I noticed later on that he only had one call to the insurer (his only phone is his cell phone as we have no landline). This is one of those things where he decided he didn't need to call and ask so just lied to me and told me did.

Or, today, he was watching TV and I called him in to ask him about the scheduling of his move (it is tomorrow) and he mutters under his breath "Oh, God, oh, God..." when I call him in. I just ignore that ask him about the move. He also tells me that his landlord says he can pay his rent any time before the end of the first 30 days (i.e. rent is due at the end of 30 days not at the beginning). I told that definitely was unique in my experience and I hoped he was right and if he wasn't to call us and we could talk about what he could do (remember he spent $50 of his rent money). I then told him that DH and I were going to give him his $425 rent for the next 2 months (that is on top of paying his first month's rent, deposit, and first month of auto insurance). He just says OK, not a word of thanks or anything. Just really irritated me.

I wish him well and hope it works out for him and he obviously feels that we know nothing and he resents any suggestions we make. At the same time, he clearly feels entitled to get the money we are giving him and shows no appreciation for it. Sigh.


Sorry to hear... I agree it is time to move him out... heck, I would help him pack and move... I would also pay the rent (as it is not going to hurt you that much financially)... and just not worry about the appreciation...

I would also invite him over for family get togethers and parties... but I would not allow him to come and go as he pleased (if you do not call ahead and get permission to come, do not expect to be let in the house).. he might want to come over and have you do the laundry or feed him when he is low on funds....


I remember when I was just out of the house... I used to go over and wash my clothes at the parents house... it was hard to keep my mom away... she wanted to interfere with my washing... I had to tell her NOT to do it... but it worked out just fine... but I always called before going...
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:28 AM   #148
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The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people. It does not consider the folly of youth which is sad indeed. There are otherwise good people who can have their entire lives ruined because of one bad judgment. Someone once said to me that hewas glad that he didn't grow up in this country because just about everybody he knew did something stupid and could have ended up in jail for what his country (European country) considered petty and minor and wouldn't arrest you for - drunkness on the street, getting into fights providing that no one was seriously hurt, petty stealing, marijuana use, etc.
Unfortunately, our lives are defined by the choices we make.

Some make better decisions than others, some think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. If you don't want to live by the rules (home and our society) , be prepared to accept the consequences, pretty simple, really. BTW, I believe that public drunkeness, assault, theft, and illicit drug use, etc. are still illegal here in the US, and I don't think we should just look the other way when people decide our laws don't apply to them. But maybe that's just me.

Following this line of thinking a step further, maybe we need to extend the "birth lottery" argument to those who have not been convicted of criminal behavior, and figure out a way to make them compensate society for their success?
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:13 PM   #149
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Unfortunately, our lives are defined by the choices we make.

Some make better decisions than others, some think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. If you don't want to live by the rules (home and our society) , be prepared to accept the consequences, pretty simple, really.
A bit self-righteous no? How many young people, particularly young men have not made some stupid mistakes because they just were not thinking? Mooning someone would not get you arrested anywhere as far as I know, well may be a woman might get arrested in Iran or Saudi Arabia, I don't know. What good is served in society by arresting a young man for indecent exposure and giving him a record for life because he mooned someone? There are just some stupid laws here that you might be breaking without even knowing. And yes, there are some laws that are not even worth the paper they're written on and unfortunately, we are bound by them.
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:17 PM   #150
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A bit self-righteous no? How many young people, particularly young men have not made some stupid mistakes because they just were not thinking? Mooning someone would not get you arrested anywhere as far as I know, well may be a woman might get arrested in Iran or Saudi Arabia, I don't know. What good is served in society by arresting a young man for indecent exposure and giving him a record for life because he mooned someone? There are just some stupid laws here that you might be breaking without even knowing. And yes, there are some laws that are not even worth the paper they're written on and unfortunately, we are bound by them.
Sure, I made a few stupid mistakes when I was a kid (and as a young adult), and suffered the consequences for them; I never considered that any laws I didn't like didn't apply to me or that I was somehow above the law. It's part of accepting personal responsibility for one's actions, the central theme of this thread.

The "stupid laws" that you mentioned in your earlier post that you considered being inconveniently "bound by" were: assault, theft, public drunkenness, and illegal drug use- a whole lot different than the kid mooning in your second example, and should be treated as such, IMO. We already have different ways of handling juvenile and adult infractions and criminal records to handle youthful indescretions.

And, as a society we're still defined by the choices we make, we all get the same rule book. How many do-overs do we owe people who "just aren't thinking" in your world?

"Sorry, your honor, I didn't mean any harm, I guess I just wasn't thinking. Yeah, I did beat him up and steal his shoes, but I was stoned and drunk at the time"
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:42 PM   #151
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And what would you do if they broke every rule you had

What would you do if they stole some of your things and hocked them to get money


I am not saying the OP's son is here... but she has said that he does not follow the rules... simple as they are...

And the second example is from a friend of one of my sisters.... it was a brother that lived with him and stole... the brother brought charges against him and he was sent to jail (it was not his first time with brother or others in the family)...

The continuum is pretty long... the question is where on it the person is... and what will be your response to them...

I can say that as long as my kids are trying to get ahead... I will support them, house them and feed them... if they think they can go through life just being lazy on my couch.... they will learn that it will not happen...

If they broke every rule I had (or even one of them repeatedly - like, let's say, "GET A JOB AND PAY RENT"), then they would be choosing to live in their car (or wherever). I would not be making them. I gave them a choice.

As I said, I think we are in violent agreement.
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:05 PM   #152
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The problem I have with ever letting him move back in is that he doesn't want to follow rules. I guess I can't exclude the possibility that he would have a serious attitude adjustment.

This is one of those things where he decided he didn't need to call and ask so just lied to me and told me did.

He also tells me that his landlord says he can pay his rent any time before the end of the first 30 days

if he wasn't to call us and we could talk about what he could do

He just says OK, not a word of thanks or anything. Just really irritated me.

1) You might be surprised - he might do a 100% turnaround. Then again, he may not. But if he is not willing to live by your rules, yeah, I would suggest he find a way to make it some place where he doesn't need to follow your rules.

2) Been there. Took me a while to realize that the lies are because we harass them and they don't want to be bothered. In this case, I understand you dont want him to lose his car, because then how will he get to work? So then you will feel you will need to help him get another car. I have dealt with all of it. Let him figure it out. My son had to walk to work more than once because his car was broken and we would not allow him to drive our car without insurance. He actually asked the other night to borrow my car and the answer was the same as always "Do you have insurance? No? Then no, you can't."

3) LOL

4) Yeah, I used to do that a lot too - give them advice on how to handle things. Probably still do more than I should at times, because as a mother you really, really hope you are helping them. Over the bigger spectrum of things - I am not sure I ever did. I often suspect I just prolonged the hope and frustrated myself more. I can tell you my first reaction was to say "Don't help him here - let him figure out how to handle it. Surely he had a plan when he spent the $50." And then I realized how easy it is to say that - and how hard it is to do that when it is your child. But I really do think it would be better for him to figure out how to handle being $50 short.

5) Uh, yeah, that would really tick me off. More than anything else you have said - this is the one observation that would worry me the most. When kids don't appreciate what their parents have done/are doing for them - there is a serious disconnect in expectations.

Again - good luck - from the sounds of things, this won't turn around quickly - but the sooner he has to handle things on his own - the sooner he will realize you weren't talking just to hear yourself talk.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:01 AM   #153
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When kids don't appreciate what their parents have done/are doing for them - there is a serious disconnect in expectations.

Again - good luck - from the sounds of things, this won't turn around quickly - but the sooner he has to handle things on his own - the sooner he will realize you weren't talking just to hear yourself talk.
Well, he is moved out now. I was actually at work today (work part time) and called home around noon. DH said that DS wasn't up yet and I knew he was supposed to move today so DH said he would check in with DS after we got off the phone. When he hung up, he found that DS left (without a word to anyone) while he was on the phone. His sister (she is his biological sister and adores him) said he walked out and was carrying something. All of that left us to wonder if he was leaving to move out, had he moved out, was he coming back to our house after work, etc. DH finally calls him this evening and he says he moved in and paid his rent. Where he got the $50 to do this I don't know. Probably his final paycheck from his old job. Of course, that leaves him about zero money until he gets paid from his new job which won't be for a week or two.

Feeling reflective about the whole thing, so much of this seems to be bound up in the adoption related issues. He was almost 9 when we adopted him and in many ways he never really deeply attached to us. This has been an ongoing issue for years (leading to lots of therapy for him which helped some). I remember when he was about 10 and he cried at having to do homework and said that if you had to grow up and work he would rather be dead. His bio dad had told him that when he came to America we would be rich and he wouldn't have to go to school and could play all the time. I'm not sure he ever got over the disappointment of finding out that wasn't true.

He only learns from his own negative experiences, won't listen to anyone else and won't ask anyone for help and from the beginning has had a very entitled attitude. So, I think that if he works through this he really has to do it on his own and there is about zero that we can do to help him.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:28 AM   #154
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What good is served in society by arresting a young man for indecent exposure and giving him a record for life because he mooned someone?
+1, especially since IIRC in the case cited the kid was taking a leak, which last time I checked can be done in most cases without indecently exposing yourself.

FWIW, it is completely legal to take a leak anywhere you like in France, as long as you keep Mr Happy out of view. At our place of work, we sometimes have police officers patrolling across the street in case of demonstrations, and my wife can see the bushes where the officers themselves go to pee on occasion. (I'm sure it's not recommended practice for them, but still.)

One of the things I notice on my visits to the US is that, for the self-described freest country on Earth, there's a heck of a lot of things that you can't do, and a heck of a lot of signs telling you not to do stuff. Here in regulated, socialist Europe, we seem to manage just fine without being told what to do by law enforcement every ten minutes.
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:26 AM   #155
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In some cases, youthful indiscretions or past problems may cause someone difficulty getting a job.

It can be difficult and our culture (and big businesses) are not too forgiving (or willing to take the risk) about certain issues...

But in this country, if one is willing to work (and has some smarts and drive), they can start a small business. They do not have to aim to become a fortune 500 company. There are plenty of small business opportunities for people who are committed and their life will turn out fine.

The problem is that most people do not have drive, confidence or direction. This is where a young person in such a situation might need guidance about opportunities.


IMO - The best thing for someone who has little direction or self-discipline is a tour of duty in the military.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:35 AM   #156
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...........
One of the things I notice on my visits to the US is that, for the self-described freest country on Earth, there's a heck of a lot of things that you can't do, and a heck of a lot of signs telling you not to do stuff. Here in regulated, socialist Europe, we seem to manage just fine without being told what to do by law enforcement every ten minutes.
BigNick, I'm afraid that you foreigners just don't understand us Americans. You see, we all have guns and if we someday want the right to pee in the bushes, then we will take that right by force. The same is true for universal health care.

In the mean time, get off our lawn.

Hijack over.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:42 AM   #157
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One of the things I notice on my visits to the US is that, for the self-described freest country on Earth, there's a heck of a lot of things that you can't do, and a heck of a lot of signs telling you not to do stuff.
Seeing as how you couldn't legally pee in the street here in the US, I'm guessing you saw a lot of these and that's what you're referring to:
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:42 AM   #158
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If they broke every rule I had (or even one of them repeatedly - like, let's say, "GET A JOB AND PAY RENT"), then they would be choosing to live in their car (or wherever). I would not be making them. I gave them a choice.

As I said, I think we are in violent agreement.

Yes... I wanted to learn what Katsmeow thought... she had a post with something like she can not agree with having them sleep in their car (I do not want to go back and look)...

I try to give my kids choices... and to let them know what will happen if they break a rule... my son is mad at me because one rule before we bought the XBox is that all homework had to be done and grades can not suffer... one of his grades dropped to a low 'B'... and it should be an 'A'... so, I said he can not play until his grade gets back to an 'A'.. he complained to mom that he had paid a lot toward the game and he can not play it... I talked to him this morning and reminded him of the rule.. asked him who caused the problem of him not playing etc. etc... he knows.. and he knew it was him... still, I get to be the 'bad guy' enforcing the rule.....

Sooo... I hope I do not get to the point of the OP... but I am willing to suffer the 'bad guy' role if need be... since she is the mom.. she can be the buffer... but if she were my wife I would hope she did not go behind my back and help out DS even after we gave all the chances he has been given...
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:55 AM   #159
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Katsmeow.....

At least the learning has begun.....

But I will say that you might have to accept that your DS is on his way to breaking all ties with you.... I am not saying it is anybody's fault... but there are people on this board who say they do not speak to their family or parents... so it happens...

My oldest brother has basically left our family... we are not sure why.. he never did fit in that well, but he is very smart and make great money... so that is not the problem... but a few years ago he just stopped coming to family holidays.. one of my sisters called him a couple of years ago and wanted to know if he was coming for Christmas (as he had missed the previous two)... his respone... 'it is to late and nobody asked me'... she responded 'Christmas is the same time every year and you are always welcome'...

This last year he has stopped calling up our mother that much... she calls and calls and leaves messages... but will only get a response maybe once in three months...


Soooo, even though we have a blood attachement... he has left the family... your DS does not have the DNA attachement... so who knows...

Just wanted to give you a possibility..
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:04 AM   #160
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IMO - The best thing for someone who has little direction or self-discipline is a tour of duty in the military.
As long as I never have to serve with them.

But if they don't have direction or self-discipline then they won't make it through recruit training anyway.

Maybe during the conscription days, the military was a magic motivating machine. But I'm not sure how someone who lacks direction or motivation would pursue the whole process of volunteering and then getting through the basics.

The key is finding something that motivates them. Plenty of other "non-profit" service organizations in the world will pay a stipend for service, and they don't necessarily depend on access to firearms or explosives.
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