Watching the trainwreck

[chinaco]

It is very difficult and it will fray your nerves... but you might have to let him bottom out before he comes to his senses.

You can counsel someone... but you cannot save them from themselves.

As long as you are his safety net he will milk the situation.

Tough love may be in order... Letting him fail could be the life lesson he needs and the earlier he learns it the better!

[Martha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha Another thing that is easy to miss is how much less forgiving the world, and particulary the US, is today when compared to say when I was a teen. Ha

I think that this is a big problem. You screw up a few times as a young adult and your can destroy your job prospects. My spouse was arrested back around 1970 for dealing drugs. In the end, even though the accusations were true, the charges were dropped with some wheeling and dealing. He never disclosed the arrest when looking for work and no one ever checked. It was frightening enough for him that he quit messing around with small time dealing. Today, he likely would have gone to prison and his life would have destroyed.

[Martha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha That is like teaching someone to swim by throwing them into the lake. They either swim, or drown. this does have kind of an evolutionary purity to it, but most of us try for a more enlightened approach. Ha

Yes, there simply isn't a rule that applies to everyone. After my first year of college I came home. If my father had tossed me out things may have gone very badly for me. I still did stupid things, but I got turned around and started college again a year later. If I had been tossed out I have this vision of me being a hippie druggie, wandering my way to warmer climes, and maybe doing something risky enough that I did not survive or being damaged enough that I never could put my life together. But who knows. I just feel lucky that I made it through a couple of really bad years.

I am encouraged that the OP's son is not a drug user. Her strategy seems reasonable, but I don't know her son.

[omni550]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha That is like teaching someone to swim by throwing them into the lake. They either swim, or drown. this does have kind of an evolutionary purity to it, but most of us try for a more enlightened approach. Ha

This analogy doesn't really hold water....

I'm guessing that the parents have been giving 'swimming lessons' for years. And lately have been throwing out plenty of PFDs (personal flotation devices) in the form of cash handouts.

omni

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha If I had been tossed out I have this vision of me being a hippie druggie, wandering my way to warmer climes, ...

Luckily things are different today!

[KM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by omni550 This analogy doesn't really hold water.... I'm guessing that the parents have been giving 'swimming lessons' for years. And lately have been throwing out plenty of PFDs (personal flotation devices) in the form of cash handouts. omni

Meh....in a way it does, and if nothing else, it made me laugh.

I think the point was that "throwing a kid out and making it clear he has no one to fall back on "might" be the best thing for them. But it also could be the worst thing. How many parents are willing to take that risk with their kid?

I think 99.99999% of the posters are in agreement that constantly supporting your kid and giving them money is a really poor idea. But seeing as most people here are also financially-savy, I suspect few here would ever do it. The difficult part is not only knowing when to start and how hard to push the "tough love"....but also what "tough love" to use.

Parents can turn off the money without throwing kids out of the house and making them believe they have no one to turn to. We haven't given DS money since before he went to college (except tuition). But we have allowed him to live here, as long as he is working full-time or in school. When I hear people say things like "let them sleep in their cars", I cringe. Could I ever get to that point? Maybe. But things would have to be a lot worse than they are before I thought that was a good solution to the problem.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KM Meh....in a way it does, and if nothing else, it made me laugh. I think the point was that "throwing a kid out and making it clear he has no one to fall back on "might" be the best thing for them. But it also could be the worst thing. How many parents are willing to take that risk with their kid? I think 99.99999% of the posters are in agreement that constantly supporting your kid and giving them money is a really poor idea. But seeing as most people here are also financially-savy, I suspect few here would ever do it. The difficult part is not only knowing when to start and how hard to push the "tough love"....but also what "tough love" to use. Parents can turn off the money without throwing kids out of the house and making them believe they have no one to turn to. We haven't given DS money since before he went to college (except tuition). But we have allowed him to live here, as long as he is working full-time or in school. When I hear people say things like "let them sleep in their cars", I cringe. Could I ever get to that point? Maybe. But things would have to be a lot worse than they are before I thought that was a good solution to the problem.

Just as a point of clarification.... I think that the people who say 'let them sleep in their cars' are the ones who also have said that they have been given any number of chances (in my nephews case it was dozens of times... with 3 of my sisters and even others...)... at some point and time you have to go the tough love route...

And you also have to be ready to lose them completely... remember there are a lot of criminals out there... I would bet that most of their parents would rather them not be doing that.... but it happens...

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KM Parents can turn off the money without throwing kids out of the house and making them believe they have no one to turn to. We haven't given DS money since before he went to college (except tuition). But we have allowed him to live here, as long as he is working full-time or in school. When I hear people say things like "let them sleep in their cars", I cringe. Could I ever get to that point? Maybe. But things would have to be a lot worse than they are before I thought that was a good solution to the problem.

I think the point that's missing is that most "tough love" parents have tried a number of softer approaches before resorting to their final attempt.

Sleeping in cars (or crashing on "friend's" couches) seems like a much more productive approach than letting them stay in the house and hikikomori on their parent's largesse.

[Letj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha I think that this is a big problem. You screw up a few times as a young adult and your can destroy your job prospects. My spouse was arrested back around 1970 for dealing drugs. In the end, even though the accusations were true, the charges were dropped with some wheeling and dealing. He never disclosed the arrest when looking for work and no one ever checked. It was frightening enough for him that he quit messing around with small time dealing. Today, he likely would have gone to prison and his life would have destroyed.

The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people. It does not consider the folly of youth which is sad indeed. There are otherwise good people who can have their entire lives ruined because of one bad judgment. Someone once said to me that hewas glad that he didn't grow up in this country because just about everybody he knew did something stupid and could have ended up in jail for what his country (European country) considered petty and minor and wouldn't arrest you for - drunkness on the street, getting into fights providing that no one was seriously hurt, petty stealing, marijuana use, etc.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letj The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people.

If I get caught with drugs in my luggage then I'd much rather be in the good ol' USA than in Mexico, Thailand, Japan, Indonesia, France, Spain, Great Britain, Germany... the list goes on & on.

Not sure about Canada or the Netherlands.

[Purron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I think the point that's missing is that most "tough love" parents have tried a number of softer approaches before resorting to their final attempt. Sleeping in cars (or crashing on "friend's" couches) seems like a much more productive approach than letting them stay in the house and hikikomori on their parent's largesse.

Wow. I had to google those terms While I agree, I believe teens often make statements like "I'll sleep in my car" to get their parents attention and sympathy. It's a way to try to gain control of the situation. If I think way back to when I was a teen, I remember a similiar thought process. "If I don't get my way, I'll do XYZ and then they'll be sorry."

[Nodak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letj The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people. It does not consider the folly of youth which is sad indeed. There are otherwise good people who can have their entire lives ruined because of one bad judgment. Someone once said to me that hewas glad that he didn't grow up in this country because just about everybody he knew did something stupid and could have ended up in jail for what his country (European country) considered petty and minor and wouldn't arrest you for - drunkness on the street, getting into fights providing that no one was seriously hurt, petty stealing, marijuana use, etc.

+1

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purron Wow. I had to google those terms

It's getting a lot of press on this island...

[Letj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords If I get caught with drugs in my luggage then I'd much rather be in the good ol' USA than in Mexico, Thailand, Japan, Indonesia, France, Spain, Great Britain, Germany... the list goes on & on. Not sure about Canada or the Netherlands.

Just to clarify, I am not just referring the the legal system and one's legal rights. I am also referring to the difficulty in restarting your life with any sort of conviction on your records. Many jobs in the US requires a having a clean background, not the same in the rest of the world. In fact, in the United Kingdom for example, you can even get a government job with a prior conviction.

[Purron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letj Just to clarify, I am not just referring the the legal system and one's legal rights. I am also referring to the difficulty in restarting your life with any sort of conviction on your records. Many jobs in the US requires a having a clean background, not the same in the rest of the world. In fact, in the United Kingdom for example, you can even get a government job with a prior conviction.

I interviewed a young man once for a job. On the application he indicated he had been arrested. The charge was "indecent exposure". What happened was he and some buds were walking back to their car from a bar and he ducked into an alley to relieve himself. We felt bad, but HR said we couldn't hire him with that in his background. Seemed a little extreme to me.

[Martha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purron I interviewed a young man once for a job. On the application he indicated he had been arrested. The charge was "indecent exposure". What happened was he and some buds were walking back to their car from a bar and he ducked into an alley to relieve himself. We felt bad, but HR said we couldn't hire him with that in his background. Seemed a little extreme to me.

That stinks.

[kumquat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords If I get caught with drugs in my luggage then I'd much rather be in the good ol' USA than in Mexico, Thailand, Japan, Indonesia, France, Spain, Great Britain, Germany... the list goes on & on. Not sure about Canada or the Netherlands.

Good thing. If you got caught in Canada, we'd just ship you south anyway and let your country handle it. Your drug laws are much tougher and sentences harder.

See this guy. Canada never even charged him (not that I think they should have). We let the US act as our proxy.

[Dreamer]

I have been through these problems with my DS also. We helped many times and then quit for the most part. It took him quite a while to mature. He is a really good person, but he is still hurt by a lot of the earlier bad decisions he made. He is now 32. He barely graduated high school, even though we had him tested and had a tutor for him in middle school. He went to college for about 5 years, but never graduated and is still paying back the college loans. We paid for his college until he started taking out loans because everybody did it. We paid off a credit card early on when he got into trouble. He never did get him degree, but works steady at a fairly low paying job. I feel your pain.

[KM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Just as a point of clarification.... I think that the people who say 'let them sleep in their cars' are the ones who also have said that they have been given any number of chances (in my nephews case it was dozens of times... with 3 of my sisters and even others...)... at some point and time you have to go the tough love route... And you also have to be ready to lose them completely... remember there are a lot of criminals out there... I would bet that most of their parents would rather them not be doing that.... but it happens...

I suspect we are in violent agreement.
I'm certainly not passing judgement on those that have had to eventually go that route. My only point was not every situation is the same. A kid who has used up multiple chances is very different than one who screws up at 19-20 and thought he could make it on his own. I get the impression Kat's son fits the latter category....at least for the time being.

[KM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purron Wow. I had to google those terms While I agree, I believe teens often make statements like "I'll sleep in my car" to get their parents attention and sympathy. It's a way to try to gain control of the situation. If I think way back to when I was a teen, I remember a similiar thought process. "If I don't get my way, I'll do XYZ and then they'll be sorry."

I am (obviously ) one of the stonger dissenters of the "let them sleep in their cars" option - but I also think you are probably right on this. Some kids can be pretty manipulative.

My position has always been, I would not make them sleep in their car. But, if my kid ever said to me: "Well, I don't like your rules, so I am moving out and I will sleep in my car if I have to", I would probably respond "Well, that's about the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but if the time comes you smarten up, you know where you can find us for a warm bed and hot meal. Just don't expect money."