What a Moral Dilemma

[Meadbh]

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Originally Posted by youbet Lots of insight into people given by their responses and comments in this thread.

You bet, youbet!

[samclem]

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Originally Posted by utrecht There is no way you would be charged with shoplifting for this.

Of course they could charge you, but they would not have a successful prosecution. But there's no problem at all with the store barring you from coming back in, under penalty of being charged with trespass. This is done frequently by stores. Not being able to shop there could be a minor or a major inconvenience, depending on the situation.
But the law and likelihood of prosecution shouldn't be the issue.
I've lived in places where it takes the law and threat of punishment to keep people from stealing, and I've lived in places where people pretty much do it on their own. The later are >much< nicer places to live.

[Tailgate]

Recently I accidentally stiffed a college kid waiter of his tip.. Thought my buddy paid the tip and he though I did. Once I realized it, I called and asked the manager, described the waiter, and asked what the kids name was. I put double the normal tip in an envelope and drove to the restaurant and personally handed it to him. I think the kid got a good message in the process and I felt good about it.
Right is Right..


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[utrecht]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem Of course they could charge you, but they would not have a successful prosecution. But there's no problem at all with the store barring you from coming back in, under penalty of being charged with trespass. This is done frequently by stores. Not being able to shop there could be a minor or a major inconvenience, depending on the situation. But the law and likelihood of prosecution shouldn't be the issue. I've lived in places where it takes the law and threat of punishment to keep people from stealing, and I've lived in places where people pretty much do it on their own. The later are >much< nicer places to live.

This thread is getting a bit ridiculous. We are talking about a sub $1 item that doesn't scan correctly after several tries and the shopper not wanting to wait for the overworked self serve cashier who is helping 3 other people with their broken scanners.

First of all, its more trouble than its worth for the customer or the store.

Secondly, the only way the store can even attempt to prosecute would be to call the police and wait, depending on the size of the city they are in, what could easily be 1-8 hours or more for the police to show up and issue a ticket. The only way for the store to issue a criminal trespass warning is to wait for the cops to show up because they have to warn the person not to come back in the presence of a police officer. The cops are not going to issue a ticket in this circumstance and it wont matter because only a fool would stand around and wait for the police to show up in the first place. The store can't force the person to wait. A smart person is going to walk out of the store.

I still stand by the fact that its the store's responsibility to make sure the scanners are working correctly or take them out and have a person do it.

[samclem]

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Originally Posted by utrecht I still stand by the fact that its the store's responsibility to make sure the scanners are working correctly or take them out and have a person do it.

The scanner is working correctly, in this respect: it beeps and shows the item on the screen when it has been scanned. If a patron disregards this deliberately, he/she is deliberately misusing the device.

How about this: if a patron isn't willing to accept the way the scanner operates, he should just go through the line with a live cashier rather than deliberately leave the store with items that haven't been paid for (i.e. steal them). Too much to ask?

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by samclem The scanner is working correctly, in this respect: it beeps and shows the item on the screen when it has been scanned. If a patron disregards this deliberately, he/she is deliberately misusing the device. How about this: if a patron isn't willing to accept the way the scanner operates, he should just go through the line with a live cashier rather than deliberately leave the store with items that haven't been paid for (i.e. steal them). Too much to ask?

Yes....


BTW, I have also just left coupons that I have tried to scan a few times and the employee was helping out someone else.... again, small amount...

[Rustic23]

Rationalize all you want, it's still theft. Be it a dollar or a hundred dollars. Am I guilty, sure, at times, but I also know it is wrong and I don't rationalize it, it's wrong. My being inconvenienced, the clerk being busy, the stores machine not working, the clerk being a jerk, all reasons, but it's still theft!

Now, how about you leave $10 a tip on your credit card. Two days later when you look online at your bank statement you see the charge has cleared and the tip was not added. Do you go back and give the waiter $10. It was a $4 tip and I rationalized I would give it to the waiter next time. Never saw the waiter again. Not theft, but I should have made the effort. We all know right from wrong, I like most just don't practice it all the time.

+1 tailgate!

Ever download a song and not paid for it? How about an ebook you got from a friend. Watch a pirated dvd?

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by Rustic23 Rationalize all you want, it's still theft. Be it a dollar or a hundred dollars. Am I guilty, sure, at times, but I also know it is wrong and I don't rationalize it, it's wrong. My being inconvenienced, the clerk being busy, the stores machine not working, the clerk being a jerk, all reasons, but it's still theft! Now, how about you leave $10 a tip on your credit card. Two days later when you look online at your bank statement you see the charge has cleared and the tip was not added. Do you go back and give the waiter $10. It was a $4 tip and I rationalized I would give it to the waiter next time. Never saw the waiter again. Not theft, but I should have made the effort. We all know right from wrong, I like most just don't practice it all the time. +1 tailgate! Ever download a song and not paid for it? How about an ebook you got from a friend. Watch a pirated dvd?

Your last sentence says a lot... and it is kinda the point... everybody 'steals'... period...

Way back when you were young.... did you copy songs from your friends records to your cassette player theft.... or from the radio... theft... Did you ever pay for a movie and it was crap, so you went to watch another.... or stay and watch a second... theft.... get home from the store and find something in your bag that you did not buy.... theft... take extra ketchup or mustard from the fast food place knowing you were not going to use it.... theft... find a pen in your pocket that you did not buy... theft... find out that you got extra change after you get home... etc. etc. etc.....

There are many more example.... but everybody will rationalize what they do as OK... it is life... 'Don't sweat the small stuff' is a good saying to abide by....

[utrecht]

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud Your last sentence says a lot... and it is kinda the point... everybody 'steals'... period... Way back when you were young.... did you copy songs from your friends records to your cassette player theft.... or from the radio... theft... Did you ever pay for a movie and it was crap, so you went to watch another.... or stay and watch a second... theft.... get home from the store and find something in your bag that you did not buy.... theft... take extra ketchup or mustard from the fast food place knowing you were not going to use it.... theft... find a pen in your pocket that you did not buy... theft... find out that you got extra change after you get home... etc. etc. etc..... There are many more example.... but everybody will rationalize what they do as OK... it is life... 'Don't sweat the small stuff' is a good saying to abide by....

+1

You can bet the "wholier than thou" people posting here will never admit their little thefts, mostly because they don't consider it theft. I don't consider it theft to take a sub $1 item that wont scan after repeated attempts because it will cost the store more in lost worker time to come over and help me. But I'm not afraid to admit that.

I will also hand the customer ahead of me $.50 without thinking twice when they are digging thru their purse trying to find the change to pay and its slowing the line down. I figure all that little stuff works out in the end.

[Midpack]

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Originally Posted by candrew You done right... Always take advantage of the opportunity to do right by others, regardless of how small or insignificant the gesture or deed. In the Karma cafe there are no menus. You will get served what you deserve.

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Originally Posted by samclem You steal the cheap items if they don't scan? Sure, there's little chance of getting caught (camera shows you tried, "I thought I heard a beep" . . .) but, c'mon. Leaving it right there (or handing to the attendant with a comment) sends the message ("your scanner sucks") and drives it home (somebody has to restock the abandoned items). If I wanted the item so much that I wouldn't abandon it, then it seems right to pay for it.

+2. Taking something without paying (full, correct price) for it is stealing, there's no rationalizing. Blaming a cheap scanner is a lame and convenient excuse, especially since the misread is more likely due to a hard to read bar code (packaging), or the customer, not the scanner. You're stealing not only from employees, but all other honest customers...

[BTravlin]

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Originally Posted by Car-Guy Not too long ago, I was overpaid exactly $2,000 when I cashed out at one of the casinos I frequent. I did consider what to do for a few seconds.

And you chose what course of action?

[Midpack]

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud Your last sentence says a lot... and it is kinda the point... everybody 'steals'... period... Way back when you were young.... did you copy songs from your friends records to your cassette player theft.... or from the radio... theft... Did you ever pay for a movie and it was crap, so you went to watch another.... or stay and watch a second... theft.... get home from the store and find something in your bag that you did not buy.... theft... take extra ketchup or mustard from the fast food place knowing you were not going to use it.... theft... find a pen in your pocket that you did not buy... theft... find out that you got extra change after you get home... etc. etc. etc..... There are many more example.... but everybody will rationalize what they do as OK... it is life... 'Don't sweat the small stuff' is a good saying to abide by....

You're welcome to rationalize, but speak for yourself, not "everybody." There are plenty of people (here & elsewhere) who haven't done any of what you allege, you act like those examples are petty and routine. Just furthering your own rationalization.

[SteveNU]

I am faced with a dilemma today. I ordered a belt for my truck from Amazon and they sent me two of them. To send it back will most likely require an hour of my time to figure out what to do, repackage it, take it to the post office, etc. If it was an item that only cost a few $ I wouldn't even bother with it. But this is an $18 belt so I will at least check to see what their policy is and figure out what to do from there.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app

[athena53]

If you're likely to need another one in the next year or two, could you just ask them to bill you for the second one?

[ivinsfan]

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Originally Posted by Midpack +2. Taking something without paying (full, correct price) for it is stealing, there's no rationalizing. Blaming a cheap scanner is a lame and convenient excuse, especially since the misread is more likely due to a hard to read bar code (packaging), or the customer, not the scanner. You're stealing not only from employees, but all other honest customers...

Now your rationalizing,our local store has lots of "self-check" very few staffed registers and no long has the 10 items or less registers at all.

They also do not have customers loyalty cards, but do have "masses" of self printed coupons they use every week. These coupons Do NOT scan properly on the self-serve machines, I don't know why but they don't. This always causes a lines at the self-serves because everyone needs some coupon help. The last time I waited and go to a machine and NOTHING would scan,,I wait for the cashier and she says to me."We've been having trouble with this machine all day!" Oh, you can't use an out of order sign or have someone fix it?

I accept I have to bag and handle all my own groceries, I accept that when I have coupons I need a full service register.But, I don't accept that it's okay for the stores to use the customers for unpaid labor. Does this mean the store are "stealing" our time? I say yes because the amount of full service registers open gets smaller every time I go through the store. There have to be a least 5 people in line before they open a new one. I can't tell you the number of time I use "Full Service" and have a pricing problem, the clerk is supposed to double check the price and enter the "UPC" code in a log for correction on the computer, they actually do this about 10% of the time. I guess they are stealing from the other customers who are busy and don't notice the pricing error. I would walk my business to another store, but I am very rural and have limited choices. What's next we have to go to the storeroom and collect our food ourselves.

The retail industry is getting less consumer friendly every day.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by ivinsfan .... I would walk my business to another store, but I am very rural and have limited choices. .... The retail industry is getting less consumer friendly every day.

Well, that is generally what happens when there is limited competition. Service goes down, prices go up, etc.

I bet there are some other things that for you, justify living in an area with limited competition. You need to take the bad with the good. It doesn't justify stealing from them - you either accept their business practices, or shop elsewhere. And you are accepting them.

-ERD50

[redduck]

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Originally Posted by utrecht This thread is getting a bit ridiculous. We are talking about a sub $1 item that doesn't scan correctly after several tries and the shopper not wanting to wait for the overworked self serve cashier who is helping 3 other people with their broken scanners. First of all, its more trouble than its worth for the customer or the store.

I don't think the thread is getting ridiculous and I'm not sure that we are simply talking about a sub $1 item. Anyhow, it seems that you've made up your own rules about what you are entitled to--and why you are entitled to them. How about having six sub $1 items that don't scan? Do you take them all? How about the $1.25 item that doesn't scan?

Anyhow, the store eventually will need to take some action against a person whom is a repeat offender. Otherwise, word gets out that customers can get away not paying for items if they go through the self-check aisle.

[ivinsfan]

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Originally Posted by ERD50 Well, that is generally what happens when there is limited competition. Service goes down, prices go up, etc. I bet there are some other things that for you, justify living in an area with limited competition. You need to take the bad with the good. It doesn't justify stealing from them - you either accept their business practices, or shop elsewhere. And you are accepting them. -ERD50

Oh no , I disagree, this store has multi-state locations and all operate the same way. Service is service and if something doesn't work, should I just say no problem. They keep opening new branches and using the same business model. ABTW I never said I stole from them, I said they make money off the customer in any way they can. They don't seem to give a hoot about customer service or making sure their registers are continually updated with the current prices, so I ask, by your definition are they stealing from me.This is not a Mom and Pop operation. Is the onus always on the customer to "do the right thing?"

[samclem]

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Originally Posted by athena53 If you're likely to need another one in the next year or two, could you just ask them to bill you for the second one?

I'd probably ask them if they want it back, and if so, send me a prepaid envelope that I can just put in my mailbox. If they won't do that, then I'd go as far as offering to pay them the value of the second belt >to me<. $18 belt, about 20% chance I'll need it = about $4.

I've received unsolicited books and CDs from "clubs," etc, and I don't return them.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by ivinsfan ... so I ask, by your definition are they stealing from me.This is not a Mom and Pop operation. Is the onus always on the customer to "do the right thing?"

No they are not stealing, because you have decided to do business with them, regardless of their poor practices.

If you got home and found they short-changed you with only 11 donuts in a dozen, 7/8th pounds of sugar in a 1 pound bag, etc. that would be stealing on their part (if intentional, or at least negligence).

As I see it, they are giving you poor service, and you are accepting it by continuing to shop there.

-ERD50