What a Moral Dilemma

[ivinsfan]

IMO, this statement here indicates to me that you do not know how business works, regardless of your statements to the contrary.

Competition is what drives a business to compete for customers. Living "in the sticks" (I'm not sure if that was your term or not, but not meant to be derogatory anyhow) has pros and cons, and one of the cons can be limited competition in some markets.

Maybe a business does good by their customers as a matter of pride, but you can't count on that. Competition will drive them out of business if they don't - they don't have a choice in the matter. Adapt or perish.

We have a LOT of competition in supermarkets in my area, from low end (Aldis) to the Whole Foods and their kind, and lots in between. We get fantastic service in all of them.

A while back at Trader Joes, DW was merely looking at the shelf for a product, and without even asking, a 'crew member' asked if she needed help finding something. It was not on the shelf, the guy went back to look for more, came back and said 'sorry' we are out'. No problem, we can get it next time, no rush.

Well, DW pays for the rest, is loading up the car, and this guy comes running out of the store, tracks her down, and says " Here, I did find them in the back in another spot - this is gratis".

Now, what were you saying about service levels are declining everywhere, as retailers try to find out how much crap their customers will put up with?


-ERD50

I take all your points and don't expect this level of service in my home area, and I'm fine with that. But do correct register prices and well functioning equipment qualify as competitive services, or does every customer have a right to those basics? That's my frustration when I refer to "crap" ....and it came back to the original question about "stealing" when the scanners don't work. Once the business doesn't respect you as their customer, it's not good.

 

[utrecht]

I think there is a point where I just decide to be 'pragmatic'. If it is a very low $ amount or percentage, I might make the judgement that it isn't worth my time to try to correct the error, and it probably isn't worth their time to deal with taking the item back, or whatever.

It is a borderline case, I might contact them and ask them.

If anyone wants to say my 'pragmatism' is 'rationalization', fine, I take no offense. It's a borderline thing and people can see it differently.

BTW, I have pointed out to waiters when they missed an item on the bill, and I did call a place when I noticed the tip didn't show up on my CC statement. In the latter case, I got the impression it was kind of a hassle for the business, but I felt better, I really did not mean to 'stiff' the person, and I sure didn't want her to think I did (hair cut place).

-ERD50

I agree completely with your statement about being pragmatic. That was my point about scanning a cheap item over and over and just throwing it in the bag when it wont scan. Some call it rationalizing stealing. I call it being pragmatic and saving everyone's time. There have also been many times when an item rings up at, lets say $2.89, when I know I saw a price of $2.29 on the shelf. I'm not going to make a big deal and waste 10 minutes of my time, the cashier's time and a manager's time to save $.60 especially if there's a line behind me. I figure all of these little things work out even over time. If anything, they work out in the store's favor because they have mis-priced items all over the store, many of which people dont notice.

 

[redduck]

Richard, if you wander around these boards you see a lot of diversity but a number of common themes around living below your means, regularly saving for retirement, taking full advantage of any employer match, investing in no-load, low-expense equity indexed mutual funds, etc. No particular magic and mostly what we all read about but many people ignore, but just slow and steady saving and investing discipline and avoiding wealth destroying traps like cashing out retirement savings when you change jobs to splurge on a vacation, avoiding get-rich-quick schemes, and things like that.

And, apparently the latest theme is: walking out with, but not paying for, items at the supermarket.

 

[redduck]

I agree completely with your statement about being pragmatic. That was my point about scanning a cheap item over and over and just throwing it in the bag when it wont scan. Some call it rationalizing stealing. I call it being pragmatic and saving everyone's time...

It might be helpful if, as you left the store with your unpaid items, you told the manager or assistant manager, or supervisor, or checker or guard that the self-scanning machine wasn't working properly and therefore, you have some items in your grocery bag that you have decided you are just taking without paying for.

 

[Bestwifeever]

It might be helpful if, as you left the store with your unpaid items, you told the manager or assistant manager, or supervisor, or checker or guard that the self-scanning machine wasn't working properly and therefore, you have some items in your grocery bag that you have decided you are just taking without paying for.

Or be extra pragmatic and let the manager know you want to save even more time for the shopper and the store personnel with these inexpensive items not worth anyone's trouble to deal with and have popped them in the grocery bag right off the shelf! (i still think an unscannable item should just be left in the store and not taken by a shopper, regardless.)

 

[utrecht]

Or be extra pragmatic and let the manager know you want to save even more time for the shopper and the store personnel with these inexpensive items not worth anyone's trouble to deal with and have popped them in the grocery bag right off the shelf! (i still think an unscannable item should just be left in the store and not taken by a shopper, regardless.)

You're welcome to your opinion. Im sure there's things that you and others do that I find to be less than 100% honest.

I noticed that you didn't comment on the fact that when I see an item get rung up by a cashier for $.50 or more than the posted price that I just let it go. I hate it when someone makes a big deal about it and holds the line up for 5 minutes while they call someone to come to the cashier, and then run back to the aisle and try to figure out what the correct price is.

Lets not even talk about the possibility that the store knows the items are ringing up for more than they should be. They happily give you the lower price if you complain, but you can bet the next person pays the higher price if they don't notice the incorrect price.

 

[Texas Proud]

You're welcome to rationalize, but speak for yourself, not "everybody." There are plenty of people (here & elsewhere) who haven't done any of what you allege, you act like those examples are petty and routine. Just furthering your own rationalization.

I am not rationalizing at all.... nobody is perfect (including you)... and nobody has done everything morally correct... period... man is not built that way... BTW, morals for one society is different than others...

I just gave a few examples... there are plenty more... you might not have done what I put down... but I bet you have done something that someone else would consider 'stealing'.... did you ever use the company copier... did you use their computer to looks something up that you needed personally... yep, stealing...

Have you ever sped Opps... now you are a criminal.... see how easy it is to judge other people....

 

[Texas Proud]

I don't think the thread is getting ridiculous and I'm not sure that we are simply talking about a sub $1 item. Anyhow, it seems that you've made up your own rules about what you are entitled to--and why you are entitled to them. How about having six sub $1 items that don't scan? Do you take them all? How about the $1.25 item that doesn't scan?

Anyhow, the store eventually will need to take some action against a person whom is a repeat offender. Otherwise, word gets out that customers can get away not paying for items if they go through the self-check aisle.

I think that the total amount of items that I have 'stolen' is 3... in the last 5 years...

Unless you add in the extra things in bags, but that is my DW... I do not know how many in total, but I do know of 2...

Things left out of the bag might total 7... but we went back for 3 or 4 of them....

 

[Midpack]

I am not rationalizing at all.... nobody is perfect (including you)... and nobody has done everything morally correct... period... man is not built that way... BTW, morals for one society is different than others...

I just gave a few examples... there are plenty more... you might not have done what I put down... but I bet you have done something that someone else would consider 'stealing'.... did you ever use the company copier... did you use their computer to looks something up that you needed personally... yep, stealing...

Have you ever sped Opps... now you are a criminal.... see how easy it is to judge other people....

Interesting how your story has changed considerably. It's a long way from your claim of "everybody 'steals'... period" then, to 'perfect' now. No one ever claimed to be perfect, but many here set the bar much higher than to knowingly steal because it's convenient, and rationalizing it's cost effective for the merchant.

NOT everybody 'steals'...period. Claiming otherwise is the where we take issue, not that we care what you do.

Yes, I have driven over the speed limit, but when did that fall under stealing - YOUR claim that prompted my earlier response?

Again, you can rationalize all you want. If assuming "everybody" is dishonest in some way makes you feel justified to steal, that's up to you - we really don't care. Just don't claim everybody does it - some people don't set their moral compass using lowest common denominator thinking...

We probably agree to disagree, it happens.

Your last sentence says a lot... and it is kinda the point... everybody 'steals'... period...

 

[Texas Proud]

Interesting how your story has changed considerably. It's a long way from your claim of "everybody 'steals'... period" then, to 'perfect' now. No one ever claimed to be perfect, but many here set the bar much higher than to knowingly steal because it's convenient, and rationalizing it's cost effective for the merchant.

NOT everybody 'steals'...period. Claiming otherwise is the where we take issue, not that we care what you do.

Yes, I have driven over the speed limit, but when did that fall under stealing - YOUR claim that prompted my earlier response?

Again, you can rationalize all you want. If assuming "everybody" is dishonest in some way makes you feel justified to steal, that's up to you - we really don't care. Just don't claim everybody does it - some people don't set their moral compass using lowest common denominator thinking...

We probably agree to disagree, it happens.

I will still stand by my stmt.... I would bet money that something has shown up in your possession that was not yours... and you did not return it... by some people here (not me) that is stealing... and I am talking your whole life.... I have had this happen to me more times than actually putting something in my bag....

Yes, we will agree to disagree...


I do find it interesting that today when I went to the store... there was something on sale for $2 but it scanned at $3.49.... easy fix... only one other person checking out and the clerk was not busy... but I look at prices... somebody probably paid the full price...

 

[haha]

This thread is getting a bit ridiculous. We are talking about a sub $1 item that doesn't scan correctly after several tries and the shopper not wanting to wait for the overworked self serve cashier who is helping 3 other people with their broken scanners.

Given your background, you are most likely correct. Still, I think it is unwise for any citizen to run the risk of a cop encounter because he doesn't want to abandon his item, or wait to get help.

Don't you ever see the videos some citizens shoot of police interactions? How about that thin blue line member in McKinney TX who wrestled the bikini wearing teenager to the turf, and then ran after some guys with his gun pointed at the fleeing guys?

No thanks, I'll abandon most anything just to make all cop interactions less likely. Maybe the responding officer just found out that his wife has a BF? Would I want him to have to deal with me because I erroneously think it is my right to walk out with a 69 cent item. Yo creo que no!

Ha

 

[utrecht]

You're really going to compare a cops mental state during an encounter with 300 teenagers some of whom are fighting and cursing everyone, to a call where someone stole a $.69 lemon?

This thing has been beaten to death. All I was saying is that its very annoying that the scanners never work like they are supposed to. Occassionally I take a $0.69 bar of soap because it wont scan and I feel like Im saving everyones time by not waiting 10 mins for the overworked self serve cashier to finish with the other broken scanners. I also pay extra for mis priced items so I dont have to wait 10 minutes to have the correct price verified. Based on those 2 common scenarios, my conscience is clear and money wise it works out in the end. If you find this a heinous act of thievery, thats your opinion.

 

[haha]

You're really going to compare a cops mental state during an encounter with 300 teenagers some of whom are fighting and cursing everyone, to a call where someone stole a $.69 lemon?

This thing has been beaten to death. All I was saying is that its very annoying that the scanners never work like they are supposed to. Occassionally I take a $0.69 bar of soap because it wont scan and I feel like Im saving everyones time by not waiting 10 mins for the overworked self serve cashier to finish with the other broken scanners. I also pay extra for mis priced items so I dont have to wait 10 minutes to have the correct price verified. Based on those 2 common scenarios, my conscience is clear and money wise it works out in the end. If you find this a heinous act of thievery, thats your opinion.

You are attributing things to me that I never said, and never even thought. I don't care at all about your morals, your law abiding nature, or anything else. I think as LEO, you undoubtedly command a certain status that the man in the street might not. I don't consider myself an arbiter of correct behavior. I don't even have pet peeves, or really any peeves at all. I want to minimize my chances of getting into difficulty, and I am experienced enough to realize that **** happens. Police are human, like everyone else. They have good days and bad days, some of them have very good judgment, some not good at all. They have dangerous, stressful jobs, that can blow up suddenly. They are big, they lift weights and they carry guns, mace, Tasers, etc. I do not want to ever be perceived as adding to their stress.

I just said that it is very unwise to invite an interaction with the law over what one's opinion of scanners may or may not be. I behave just like I behave when someone is walking along the sidewalk and gives signs that he considers all of it his. Ok sir, after you!

I don't think this applies to you. You have different understanding, and no doubt different standing. I am speaking to what I consider generally prudent behavior for the man in the street.

Ha

 

[Midpack]

While we have two (steadfastly, as usual) divergent camps, at least we have full agreement on one point.



I am among the guilty...

 

[Danmar]

Do you think it would be more morally justified if the person in question was precariously poor? Sometimes I think scrupulous honesty is something the well to do can afford (and should persue) while those less fortunate may not be able to afford it?

 

[utrecht]

And, apparently the latest theme is: walking out with, but not paying for, items at the supermarket.

And just like the mainstream media who report bits and pieces of a story to fit their agenda, this quote leaves out the part about these certain people over paying for items that ring up at a higher than posted price at said grocery store for the same reason...to save everyone's time instead of wasting time over $0.50

 

[Rustic23]

I purchased three pounds of cherries after leaving the store I noticed it rang up one pound. It's worth it when you go back and just say "the cherries rang up wrong" and see the look on the their face when they figure you owe them!


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[samclem]

I bought 8 items (foam insulation for pipes) that I thought were identical at HD last week, but got them home and found two were "deluxe" (had peel and stick adhesive) and 6 were "standard" (no glue). I wanted the ones with glue. It turned out that they'd charged me for 8 standard ones. I used the 2 "glued" ones and returned the 6 "standard" ones. What a mess at the return desk, trying to explain that I owed them more money for the two "deluxe" ones that I hadn't brought back--it proved impossible for her to charge me. Finally, when I bought the stuff I needed, I just rang up one more insulation sleeve than I actually had in my hand, the amounts worked out right. But their inventory won't be.

 

[NW-Bound]

While we have two (steadfastly, as usual) divergent camps, at least we have full agreement on one point.



I am among the guilty...

I just want to comment that when multiple animated GIF icons are posted, their movements are synchronized.

I think it would be way cooler if they are randomized, so as not to be in phase.

 

[bld999]

If they support a claim of agreement, synchronization is essential.

 

[Rick_Head]

I think that the total amount of items that I have 'stolen' is 3... in the last 5 years...

..

Is that possibly 3 too many?

You might want to look at the stats for various criminal convictions in Texas (it's the last place I'll be in when I have to dispatch DW).

 

[ERD50]

While we have two (steadfastly, as usual) divergent camps, at least we have full agreement on one point.



I am among the guilty...

I just want to comment that when multiple animated GIF icons are posted, their movements are synchronized.

I think it would be way cooler if they are randomized, so as not to be in phase.

Hmmmm, like (see if this works... set the delay to 100 ms, 127 ms and 149 ms - the last two being prime #'s)

See, there are two types of people in this world - the dreamers, and the do-ers! Ummm, and a third type... those with too much time on their hands!

-ERD50

 

[JoeWras]

Finally a nice laugh after a serious thread diversion.

ERD, you need to patent that.

 

[H2ODude]

I am actually laughing out loud! And for the record, I am pragmatic! I well remember when confronting a politically connected engineering firm for scamming my city that the mayor's chief admin took me to lunch and nicely told me I was a typical pragmatic engineer. I actually looked pragmatic up to confirm my understanding of what I'd been told. I admitted to myself that yeah, maybe he was right.

It is interesting to see the (sometimes rather strident IMO) takes on this.

 

[NW-Bound]

Very cool!

ERD50 is certainly a do-er!

See, people in a mob do not all act in unison, like cheerleaders or line dancers. There has to be some variations in their movements.

Now, how about the horses wriggling their legs a bit differently.