What a Moral Dilemma

[Meadbh]

Once or twice a year I discover a credit card purchase that was never credited to my account. It's always a small item. I don't follow up on these, because I had agreed to pay and I figure it's the merchant's job to have reliable payment systems in place.

 

[prudent_one]

I will point out errors even if they are in my favor. But I recognize that's easy for me when a few bucks isn't going to hurt. Therefore I like to think "do the right thing now, karma and all that."

However, I wonder what I would do if money was tight and a few bucks was a big deal. Would I think "here's karma smiling on me for all those times I was generous?" I can see myself rationalizing it away just like that.

 

[HFWR]

If "karma" was an actual thing; alas, it doesn't seem to work...

Generally, if it's not yours, don't take it. The only reward is a sense of inner peace, and maybe some holier-than-thou...

 

[athena53]

So this got me to thinking... ...are people generally that dishonest or is it because in her case it was the big, bad insurance company, whereas in mine it was a local family owned business. BTW, I was also surprised that so many people would tell her to keep it and not notify the ins co.

I worked in insurance for almost 40 years and I'd have called them, but I know most people rationalize it with "I paid my premiums all those years so they owe me".

When I was a teenager, my brothers found an abandoned bike- in very good condition. My parents did the right thing: called the Police Department and reported it found, and put an ad in the paper. No responses other than people who called about the ad but couldn't describe it correctly. In the meantime, I was riding it around and having a good time. At one point a man in his yard called me over and asked where I'd gotten the bike. I told him the whole story, and he said it had been stolen and belonged to one of his kids. He went with me to talk with my parents and said that he hadn't checked the Lost and Found ads because he figured no one would post it, and he'd called the Sheriff's Department but not the police. He also mentioned having filed a claim with his insurance. He was credible and we gave the bike back but I was annoyed. We always wondered if the insurance company ever heard about it.

 

[NW-Bound]

If "karma" was an actual thing; alas, it doesn't seem to work...

Generally, if it's not yours, don't take it. The only reward is a sense of inner peace, and maybe some holier-than-thou...

When we do good, we like to think we would be rewarded. Inner peace may be that sole reward. But same as with karma, it doesn't always work. I mean, bad people may sleep more soundly than you and I.

 

[LoneAspen]

So this got me to thinking... ...are people generally that dishonest or is it because in her case it was the big, bad insurance company, whereas in mine it was a local family owned business. BTW, I was also surprised that so many people would tell her to keep it and not notify the ins co.

Years ago, I had a handgun stolen during a home burglary. It wasn't the only thing stolen, but was the most expensive. At the time, it was probably worth about $2000.

It was recovered by a police department last year. One of the things they asked me was did I file a claim when it was stolen, because if I had, it was now owned by the insurance company and they'd have to return it to them instead of me. I was 99% sure I hadn't, but I called the insurance company anyway to confirm if I'd filed a claim for a home burglary. As I suspected, I hadn't. (side note - the reason I didn't was, I've heard enough horror stories about people filing small homeowner's claims and then having their rates skyrocket or the insurance company drop them, I decided long ago I'd only ever file a homeowner's claim in a catastrophic loss like a fire).

The other items stolen were inconsequential compared to the handgun. If I'd filed a claim, I still would have had $500 come out of my pocket for the deductible. And I've paid them tens of thousands of dollars in premiums over the years (I've had the same insurance company since I turned 16 and started driving), and only had one chargeable accident and it was minimal.

So it got me to thinking...what if I had filed a claim? Would I have told them, and let the insurance company take possession? I'm not so sure I would have. I might have succumbed to the "big bad insurance company" line of thinking the OP mentioned.

I'm glad I didn't face that moral test, as I'm not so sure I would have passed.

 

[Bestwifeever]

It is frustrating and we all decide what we want to do, but if I had an item at Walmart that would not scan after several tries and no customer service available to help, I would not even consider taking it--I would leave it on the counter or I would get in a line to have a real person deal with it. No question that it is wrong to just take it.

And the security cameras can catch this, you could have a record, and then you have to deal with a shoplifting charge, and why would a judge say it was okay?

 

[JoeWras]

overstock.com credited me $400+ because they said something I bought 2 years previously was never delivered. Good effort on their part to be honest, but they were wrong in my case.

Because it was delivered.

I called them to tell them of their error. The clerk was dumbfounded that I let them know. She said she would have just spent the little bonus!

I found her honest response to be disturbing. Disturbing enough that I don't shop at overstock.com anymore.

 

[Fermion]

I overpaid the IRS for about 7 years until I found my mistake. They had no moral dilemma keeping my money for the first 4 of those years.

 

[imoldernu]

As this topic fades, here's an interesting comment on morality that deserves a read... "Why I Defaulted on My Student Loans"

http://http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/why-i-defaulted-on-my-student-loans.html

A writer's outlook on the balance of morality between the public laws and the individual. Unspoken, but challenging the letter of the law, with the matter of personal responsibility.

note: Anytime a NYT article pops up a paywall, searching the article title will usually bring up a legal link.

 

[samclem]

As this topic fades, here's an interesting comment on morality that deserves a read... "Why I Defaulted on My Student Loans"

Thanks--I read it and believe the author is typical of many self-entitled people. Everyone is to blame for her situation but her. She "deserves" to be a writer, she's too good to work in some "regular" job where she could earn enough to pay back the loans--the ones she took voluntarily. And then she gives tips to others on how to defraud.
Whatever she learned in her college, she didn't become a real adult there.

 

[utrecht]

It is frustrating and we all decide what we want to do, but if I had an item at Walmart that would not scan after several tries and no customer service available to help, I would not even consider taking it--I would leave it on the counter or I would get in a line to have a real person deal with it. No question that it is wrong to just take it.

And the security cameras can catch this, you could have a record, and then you have to deal with a shoplifting charge, and why would a judge say it was okay?

There is no way you would be charged with shoplifting for this. First of all there are no instructions on the scanner. The store knows they are risking some items not being paid for because they were not scanned correctly but they make it up by saving the cashiers salary. You pick up your item, slide it across the machine and throw it in your bag. There is nothing in any penal code that says "while using a grocery scanner you must be absolutely sure that every item scans correctly". If the item doesn't scan correctly or for the correct price, that's the store's fault. If you were seen on a security camera putting an item straight into your bag making no attempt to scan it, then it would be shoplifting. They have to be able to prove your intent. How are they going to prove you didn't know it was scanned when you ran it across the machine?

 

[youbet]

I overpaid the IRS for about 7 years until I found my mistake. They had no moral dilemma keeping my money for the first 4 of those years.

Did the IRS actually know you overpaid and did someone there actually make a decision to not inform you and return your money?

While I wouldn't count on it happening, I had the IRS send me a check due to an arithmetic error on my part back in the days of doing my taxes manually.

 

[youbet]

Lots of insight into people given by their responses and comments in this thread.

 

[Bestwifeever]

There is no way you would be charged with shoplifting for this. First of all there are no instructions on the scanner. The store knows they are risking some items not being paid for because they were not scanned correctly but they make it up by saving the cashiers salary. You pick up your item, slide it across the machine and throw it in your bag. There is nothing in any penal code that says "while using a grocery scanner you must be absolutely sure that every item scans correctly". If the item doesn't scan correctly or for the correct price, that's the store's fault. If you were seen on a security camera putting an item straight into your bag making no attempt to scan it, then it would be shoplifting. They have to be able to prove your intent. How are they going to prove you didn't know it was scanned when you ran it across the machine?

I guess it's okay then for you to just take it without paying for it.

 

[Meadbh]

Lots of insight into people given by their responses and comments in this thread.

You bet, youbet!

 

[samclem]

There is no way you would be charged with shoplifting for this.

Of course they could charge you, but they would not have a successful prosecution. But there's no problem at all with the store barring you from coming back in, under penalty of being charged with trespass. This is done frequently by stores. Not being able to shop there could be a minor or a major inconvenience, depending on the situation.
But the law and likelihood of prosecution shouldn't be the issue.
I've lived in places where it takes the law and threat of punishment to keep people from stealing, and I've lived in places where people pretty much do it on their own. The later are >much< nicer places to live.

 

[Tailgate]

Recently I accidentally stiffed a college kid waiter of his tip.. Thought my buddy paid the tip and he though I did. Once I realized it, I called and asked the manager, described the waiter, and asked what the kids name was. I put double the normal tip in an envelope and drove to the restaurant and personally handed it to him. I think the kid got a good message in the process and I felt good about it.
Right is Right..


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[utrecht]

Of course they could charge you, but they would not have a successful prosecution. But there's no problem at all with the store barring you from coming back in, under penalty of being charged with trespass. This is done frequently by stores. Not being able to shop there could be a minor or a major inconvenience, depending on the situation.
But the law and likelihood of prosecution shouldn't be the issue.
I've lived in places where it takes the law and threat of punishment to keep people from stealing, and I've lived in places where people pretty much do it on their own. The later are >much< nicer places to live.

This thread is getting a bit ridiculous. We are talking about a sub $1 item that doesn't scan correctly after several tries and the shopper not wanting to wait for the overworked self serve cashier who is helping 3 other people with their broken scanners.

First of all, its more trouble than its worth for the customer or the store.

Secondly, the only way the store can even attempt to prosecute would be to call the police and wait, depending on the size of the city they are in, what could easily be 1-8 hours or more for the police to show up and issue a ticket. The only way for the store to issue a criminal trespass warning is to wait for the cops to show up because they have to warn the person not to come back in the presence of a police officer. The cops are not going to issue a ticket in this circumstance and it wont matter because only a fool would stand around and wait for the police to show up in the first place. The store can't force the person to wait. A smart person is going to walk out of the store.

I still stand by the fact that its the store's responsibility to make sure the scanners are working correctly or take them out and have a person do it.

 

[samclem]

I still stand by the fact that its the store's responsibility to make sure the scanners are working correctly or take them out and have a person do it.

The scanner is working correctly, in this respect: it beeps and shows the item on the screen when it has been scanned. If a patron disregards this deliberately, he/she is deliberately misusing the device.

How about this: if a patron isn't willing to accept the way the scanner operates, he should just go through the line with a live cashier rather than deliberately leave the store with items that haven't been paid for (i.e. steal them). Too much to ask?

 

[Texas Proud]

The scanner is working correctly, in this respect: it beeps and shows the item on the screen when it has been scanned. If a patron disregards this deliberately, he/she is deliberately misusing the device.

How about this: if a patron isn't willing to accept the way the scanner operates, he should just go through the line with a live cashier rather than deliberately leave the store with items that haven't been paid for (i.e. steal them). Too much to ask?

Yes....


BTW, I have also just left coupons that I have tried to scan a few times and the employee was helping out someone else.... again, small amount...

 

[Rustic23]

Rationalize all you want, it's still theft. Be it a dollar or a hundred dollars. Am I guilty, sure, at times, but I also know it is wrong and I don't rationalize it, it's wrong. My being inconvenienced, the clerk being busy, the stores machine not working, the clerk being a jerk, all reasons, but it's still theft!

Now, how about you leave $10 a tip on your credit card. Two days later when you look online at your bank statement you see the charge has cleared and the tip was not added. Do you go back and give the waiter $10. It was a $4 tip and I rationalized I would give it to the waiter next time. Never saw the waiter again. Not theft, but I should have made the effort. We all know right from wrong, I like most just don't practice it all the time.

+1 tailgate!

Ever download a song and not paid for it? How about an ebook you got from a friend. Watch a pirated dvd?

 

[Texas Proud]

Rationalize all you want, it's still theft. Be it a dollar or a hundred dollars. Am I guilty, sure, at times, but I also know it is wrong and I don't rationalize it, it's wrong. My being inconvenienced, the clerk being busy, the stores machine not working, the clerk being a jerk, all reasons, but it's still theft!

Now, how about you leave $10 a tip on your credit card. Two days later when you look online at your bank statement you see the charge has cleared and the tip was not added. Do you go back and give the waiter $10. It was a $4 tip and I rationalized I would give it to the waiter next time. Never saw the waiter again. Not theft, but I should have made the effort. We all know right from wrong, I like most just don't practice it all the time.

+1 tailgate!

Ever download a song and not paid for it? How about an ebook you got from a friend. Watch a pirated dvd?

Your last sentence says a lot... and it is kinda the point... everybody 'steals'... period...

Way back when you were young.... did you copy songs from your friends records to your cassette player theft.... or from the radio... theft... Did you ever pay for a movie and it was crap, so you went to watch another.... or stay and watch a second... theft.... get home from the store and find something in your bag that you did not buy.... theft... take extra ketchup or mustard from the fast food place knowing you were not going to use it.... theft... find a pen in your pocket that you did not buy... theft... find out that you got extra change after you get home... etc. etc. etc.....

There are many more example.... but everybody will rationalize what they do as OK... it is life... 'Don't sweat the small stuff' is a good saying to abide by....

 

[utrecht]

Your last sentence says a lot... and it is kinda the point... everybody 'steals'... period...

Way back when you were young.... did you copy songs from your friends records to your cassette player theft.... or from the radio... theft... Did you ever pay for a movie and it was crap, so you went to watch another.... or stay and watch a second... theft.... get home from the store and find something in your bag that you did not buy.... theft... take extra ketchup or mustard from the fast food place knowing you were not going to use it.... theft... find a pen in your pocket that you did not buy... theft... find out that you got extra change after you get home... etc. etc. etc.....

There are many more example.... but everybody will rationalize what they do as OK... it is life... 'Don't sweat the small stuff' is a good saying to abide by....

+1

You can bet the "wholier than thou" people posting here will never admit their little thefts, mostly because they don't consider it theft. I don't consider it theft to take a sub $1 item that wont scan after repeated attempts because it will cost the store more in lost worker time to come over and help me. But I'm not afraid to admit that.

I will also hand the customer ahead of me $.50 without thinking twice when they are digging thru their purse trying to find the change to pay and its slowing the line down. I figure all that little stuff works out in the end.

 

[Midpack]

You done right...

Always take advantage of the opportunity to do right by others, regardless of how small or insignificant the gesture or deed.

In the Karma cafe there are no menus. You will get served what you deserve.

You steal the cheap items if they don't scan? Sure, there's little chance of getting caught (camera shows you tried, "I thought I heard a beep" . . .) but, c'mon.

Leaving it right there (or handing to the attendant with a comment) sends the message ("your scanner sucks") and drives it home (somebody has to restock the abandoned items). If I wanted the item so much that I wouldn't abandon it, then it seems right to pay for it.

+2. Taking something without paying (full, correct price) for it is stealing, there's no rationalizing. Blaming a cheap scanner is a lame and convenient excuse, especially since the misread is more likely due to a hard to read bar code (packaging), or the customer, not the scanner. You're stealing not only from employees, but all other honest customers...