What about self-driving trucks?

[jazz4cash]

One assist for trucks that I do wonder why it is not there is rear vision cameras on the trailer. Apparently backing a semi up is quite a skill. Basically you would put hooks on the side of the trailer (or cables) that the cameras were connected to. Big tow trucks already have them, to watch the towed vehicle.

A rear camera is a good safety feature but the problem isn't being able to see. It's like pushing a noodle so to speak. I've known many professional drivers that can't maneuver very far in reverse, but it's easier than backing a car with a trailer that is proportionally similar lengthwise.

 

[MRG]

A rear camera is a good safety feature but the problem isn't being able to see. It's like pushing a noodle so to speak. I've known many professional drivers that can't maneuver very far in reverse, but it's easier than backing a car with a trailer that is proportionally similar lengthwise.

Depends on where they have to drive. You can get really good at backing up if your paycheck depends on it.

I received logs from 18 wheelers and 10 wheelers with pups. Those folks can and do drive in reverse for lengthy drives. In many logging sites you can't turn around, meaning you back up to the log landing wherever it is.

Amazing how well folks can drive in reverse if they have to. At least I did.

 

[Walt34]

There is a significant shortage of commercial drivers in my neck of the woods. Many are retiring and I read claims about how it's a losing battle to hire new drivers, even though the pay is tremendous considering the training only takes a few weeks. I expect some will fret about lost jobs, but it seems few want to be a driver anymore anyway.

We see the same thing here, lots of ads for truck drivers. Saw one today for starting pay at $52k/year, not bad for a job that only needs a high school education + a few weeks training. With additional certifications like hazardous materials + accident-free years of experience pay can sometimes go to six figures.

That's a strong incentive for trucking companies to invest heavily in self-driving trucks if they can make drivers unneeded. I think if one is a driver within ten years of retirement, no worries, but if longer than that one had best be thinking about taking classes for something else.

Also consider the efficiencies - the only downtime is for maintenance/repairs so they can run nearly 24/7.

 

[NW-Bound]

...So imagine a 'train' of 'smart trucks' that could talk to each other. One takes the lead, the driver is involved, with assistance, and several trucks are allowed to tuck in behind him. The smarts could keep them within a foot of each other...

I have seen plenty of truck tire explosions on the road. With a convoy of trucks packed 1 foot from each other, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[NW-Bound]

Currently major truck OEMs do have self driving units under evaluation, but I expect a human monitor will be required for a long, long time...

A completely autonomous semi-trailer would be very expensive with all the sensors for monitoring.

One time I saw a semi-trailer had one of its rear tires blown out on the freeway. The driver did not know, and kept on driving while the tire shred itself all over the road in a matter of seconds. The trailer had to be empty because this guy was going fast through busy traffic. I would not know how to signal to him if I could catch up with him before my exit. Eventually he would find out, I hope, and that no additional tires got blown due to more load on them.

 

[ERD50]

I have seen plenty of truck tire explosions on the road. With a convoy of trucks packed 1 foot from each other, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Yes, I thought about the tire blow out later, and that would seem to blow out this idea as well!

Here's another idea - a semi could transmit its camera/sensor info to cars behind it. That would give the other car drivers/systems a view around that big truck.

A while back, I saw a prototype idea, a large screen monitor on the back of a truck, and it showed what was on the front facing camera of the truck. While that did help you 'see around the truck', I think that might be kinda disorienting though.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

A rear camera is a good safety feature but the problem isn't being able to see. It's like pushing a noodle so to speak. I've known many professional drivers that can't maneuver very far in reverse, but it's easier than backing a car with a trailer that is proportionally similar lengthwise.

I always have a heck of a time backing up my bitty 4'x8' trailer. Come to think of it, perhaps the short wheel base makes the thing jack-knife on me easily and quickly.

 

[Spudd]

Here's an article about a self-driving truck convoy test they did in Europe:
http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/7/11383392/self-driving-truck-platooning-europe

 

[Amethyst]

Was it a genuine blow-out (tire destroyed) or did it merely "shed the cap" or outer layer of the tire? That can look pretty disastrous, as it involves a lot of rubber flying around, but does not necessarily cause an accident.

(The reason I know about this is that I have been a passenger with a motor pool driver who had been a trucker once upon a time).

A completely autonomous semi-trailer would be very expensive with all the sensors for monitoring.

One time I saw a semi-trailer had one of its rear tires blown out on the freeway. The driver did not know, and kept on driving while the tire shred itself all over the road in a matter of seconds. The trailer had to be empty because this guy was going fast through busy traffic. I would not know how to signal to him if I could catch up with him before my exit. Eventually he would find out, I hope, and that no additional tires got blown due to more load on them.

 

[NW-Bound]

Was it a genuine blow-out (tire destroyed) or did it merely "shed the cap" or outer layer of the tire? That can look pretty disastrous, as it involves a lot of rubber flying around, but does not necessarily cause an accident.

(The reason I know about this is that I have been a passenger with a motor pool driver who had been a trucker once upon a time).

I have seen two true truck tire blow-outs in my RV trips, and the tires disintegrated instantly. Big explosion!

One case, it was in front of me, but in the next lane. The truck driver instantly knew it, apparently from the explosion, slowed down and pulled over. The debris hit another RV right behind him, and the RV also pulled over. There was a motorcyclist in another lane, and he escaped harm. This scared the hell of me, and I would never ride motorcycle in traffic again, and only on forest trails.

The other case, the truck driver was overtaking my RV when one of his left-side tires exploded. Scared the hell out of me too, as he was parallel to me. Nothing hit my RV as I was on the inner lane, meaning to his right. I immediately hit the brake to allow him to pass me and to pull over.

The case I described in the earlier post was not as explosive. I also saw it when it first happened. A "puff", and the outer cap started to peel off immediately. The rest continued to peel off, flinging around, and there was a lot of smoke. The driver was apparently oblivious, because he kept on going. When I got to my exit 3 or 4 miles later, there was little of that tire left. Again, the trailer appeared to be empty, as he got pretty darn good acceleration, and was going fast.

 

[NW-Bound]

Here's an article about a self-driving truck convoy test they did in Europe:
http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/7/11383392/self-driving-truck-platooning-europe

Very interesting. They say 10% fuel saving, which is impressive. The truck spacing looks like 10 ft, which should be OK.

 

[growing_older]

Heck, why not just go back to railroads? With trucks for the near-in trips.

We may be closer than you think. I'm not aware of any self driving trains doing long haul routes yet, but there are numerous switchyards that use self driving locomotives to switch cars around. It's maybe easier than driving on open roads, but it's here and working every day.

 

[meierlde]

We may be closer than you think. I'm not aware of any self driving trains doing long haul routes yet, but there are numerous switchyards that use self driving locomotives to switch cars around. It's maybe easier than driving on open roads, but it's here and working every day.

Railroads have Union contracts with locomotive engineers and conductors so it will never fly. (Teamsters for engineers and UTU for Conductors). In fact the class 1 roads still have to have 2 folks in each locomotive (an engineer and a conductor). Note that Obama had a regulation that has been abolished to require 2 folks on all railroads, not just Union ones. So self driving locomotives won't appear on line hauls, all be it with positive train control you have most of the infrastructure needed to do it.

 

[NW-Bound]

I don't know if you can save much money at all eliminating 2 jobs for a long train that pulls miles of cargo, particularly if you have to put in fancy electronics for safety, and then have to maintain them.

About the truck convoy that saves 10% fuel with a 10' distance between them, I have mentioned here my experience with a class C RV pulling a car. With the car about 4' from the RV, I see no noticeable mileage penalty compared to the RV traveling alone.

This is measured over legs of 300 miles, over the same flat land, and I usually drive the same constant speed. There has to be some penalty but it is so low that it is buried in the noise, caused by head/tail wind and other factors.

 

[ponyboy]

I do wonder what will happen to the economy when those truck drivers aren't needed any more.

The economy will explode...in a positive way. Probably growth like we've never seen. There will be twice as many trucks on the road transporting goods. That means all of those truckers who were laid off will be working at factories making truck parts. Roads will need to be maintained...as of now those self driving vehicles rely on the lines on the road. More state jobs to keep the lines fresh. Always repairing roads...will need people for that. Whats going to be the trucks energy source? We'll need tons of people to work in those factories. Whos going to maintain the trucks? We'll need a lot of people for that.

When one door closes another opens. This will be a great thing. The price of goods will go down. Time to receive goods will be quicker. Less deaths on road due to trucks having to obey all laws, drivers not falling asleep, etc etc.

 

[bUU]

That used to be the way the world worked, but there's no reason to believe that that is the case now. Globalization means that either those new jobs will be exported or the lower standard of living of those in developing countries will be imported to the United States, yielding greater profits.

 

[ERD50]

...
About the truck convoy that saves 10% fuel with a 10' distance between them, ...

You brought up the tire blow out issue, but then it also sounded like while 'exciting', it didn't cause the path of the truck to change much in a short time. So a 10' spacing, or maybe even slightly less, might be do-able?

As long as we are thinking 'out there', maybe these trucks could also have an inflatable bag in the back that would inflate to take up that 10' gap, and reduce turbulence further? That might increase the fuel savings beyond 10%?

But yes, it's hard to say if this would have any payback, considering the likely limited application, the cost, and ~ 10% savings, which would only during the time you can run a 'convoy', which would not be all the time.

-ERD50

 

[Totoro]

Heck, why not just go back to railroads? With trucks for the near-in trips.

If you observe the average railroad track, and then the average road you know why: railroad tracks are barely used compared to roads.

For alot of applications you wouldn't use railroads today, just roads. Where they shine is long distance high speed - bullet train and maybe hyperloop one day. Until airplanes beat them out at even longer distances (>1000 miles).

Another area is in bulk transport of heavy goods: coal, steel. This one is a bit more tricky: roads are designed for low loads so higher loads (per wheel) destroy them and increase maintenance costs. Railroad track can handle that much better. I believe wear and tear on roads go up by an exponential factor of 4 (x^4) by weight. One superheavy truck is worth years of cars.

If you could magically replace the current railroad tracks with high performance roads I'm not sure which solution would win out with regards to heavy loads - curious to know if someone has insight there.

It might actually be that the high performance road resembles the railroad quite a bit in most important aspects. It would improve end station maneuverability for sure though. Not really an issue for the steel factory I'd guess.

 

[Totoro]

As long as we are thinking 'out there', maybe these trucks could also have an inflatable bag in the back that would inflate to take up that 10' gap, and reduce turbulence further? That might increase the fuel savings beyond 10%?

A few startups and truck manufacturers have tried this. It's stuff in the back and also items like sidewings.

The biggest issue with these is operations: getting the truck driver and companies to accept it, and maintain for a long while. For that reason sidewings became accepted faster. The inflatable bag in the back just didn't work so far. Too many issues interfering with loading/unloading docks.

 

[NW-Bound]

But yes, it's hard to say if this would have any payback, considering the likely limited application, the cost, and ~ 10% savings, which would only during the time you can run a 'convoy', which would not be all the time...

As the European experiment shows, a 10-ft spacing works for 10% fuel savings, and that is definitely be worthwhile. With technology, they can work out a V2V communications scheme for a truck to ask to join the convoy and to leave it. This way, a trucker can save every little bit he can by joining and leaving whatever convoys he encounters during his own individual itinerary. Here in the US, truckers may share a leg of 100 miles or more easily. Between Phoenix and LA for example, there are not many towns and most interstate truckers go the whole distance.

The 10-ft spacing is still scary though, if the lead truck has to stop because of an accident in front of him. And then, each truck has different acceleration and braking capabilities depending on the load that they carry. On anything other than flat land, coordinating a convoy is tough if not impossible.

 

[tinlizzy]

Self driving delivery trucks - the parcel trucks, would still need a person in them unless a robot arm chucking packages into the front yard became acceptable .

As for the blown out semi tires - they have 16. One blowing out probably isn't all that noticeable.

 

[bUU]

One blowing out probably isn't all that noticeable.

I believe the concern there is not with regard to the truck that loses the tire but rather the impact of the debris on the trucks behind it.

 

[marko]

I do wonder what will happen to the economy when those truck drivers aren't needed any more.

Ask a telephone operator.
Or a telephone installer! Remember when they used to check your lines to make sure you didn't install any phones on your own?
TV repairman anyone?
Gas station attendants?
Milkmen?

My point is, jobs change, people move on and find other jobs, retire.

Not the exact person of course, but new jobs and skills emerge:
Did the telephone operator become a call center worker?
Does the phone installer now install data lines and smoke detectors for an electrician?
Is the TV repairman now an HVAC repairman?
Are the gas station attendants and millkmen now working for UPS?

 

[bUU]

The current trend though is the conversion of living wage jobs (believe it or not, gas station attendants in the 1950s and 1960s made enough to support a spouse at home and raising two children) into sub-sustenance jobs.

 

[ERD50]

The current trend though is the conversion of living wage jobs (believe it or not, gas station attendants in the 1950s and 1960s made enough to support a spouse at home and raising two children) into sub-sustenance jobs.

Got a reference for that? From what I remember, pumping gas in the 60's & 70's (I was too young to pay attention to such things in the 50's) was the equivalent, maybe less than a 'flippin' burgers' job. High school kids, part timers, etc. They did get tips sometimes.

-ERD50