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Old 03-23-2008, 11:24 AM   #21
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As long as it causes no harm or cost to others, OK. But don't expect me to pay the bills, medical, liability or otherwise. In other words, stay off the roads, out of the workforce, etc where your habit could cause harm...and pay for your habit without harming others (you can't take my property and sell it to pay for your habit nor your subsistence, and you can't tax me - place me in indenture - to support you or your habit, either). THAT is the American thing to do.
R
Indeed.

And what is the cost of releasing the incarcerated people? Do you think that because they were convicted of only one crime that they committed only one crime?

I'll take a contrary stance and hold that it is in many cases cheaper to lock 'em up than release them. Which to release and which not to is the subject of much debate. But consider the possibility that the people who are so addicted that they are unemployable and therefore resort to stealing are a greater drain on the country's resources than the cost of incarceration is.
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:44 PM   #22
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Just think of the potential revenue source to the governments if drugs were legalized. That combined with all of the savings from not spending money on incarceration, and the drug war we should be able to fund a lot of the the feel good social programs from the yahoos in Washington and the local State governments without raising taxes.
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Old 03-23-2008, 01:04 PM   #23
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Legalizing certain drugs will mean that companies can't legally test for them or disqualify candidates for employment because of those drugs in their systems...even though it will mean untold millions in losses for the companies.
when you argue that the ends justifies the means, does not the ends lose some, if not all, of its integrity?

never having had to pee in a cup as a violation of my 4th & 5th amendment rights, my last two companies instituted a policy of forced urination right after i was hired, but only of new incoming hires, not me. so i tried not to take it personally. had they asked me for a sample, i'd have pissed on my desk & walked comfortably away.

but i have no problem with my airline pilot peeing in a cup. now what to do about alcohol? what to do about prescription drugs?

who would you rather have on the highway with you, a 25-year-old who just smoked a joint or a 72-year-old who has already popped his fifth legal pill of the day?

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Just think of the potential revenue source to the governments if drugs were legalized. That combined with all of the savings from not spending money on incarceration, and the drug war we should be able to fund a lot of the the feel good social programs from the yahoos in Washington and the local State governments without raising taxes.
or it could go right back into drug rehab programs, with likely a better success rate than has jail.
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Old 03-23-2008, 01:54 PM   #24
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If street drugs were not illegal, the price would fall to the point that organized crime would not find it worthwhile. I have long been convinced that there are entrenched interests which keep drugs illegal so as to keep them profitable. Is the war on drugs just a marketing campaign?

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Old 03-23-2008, 02:16 PM   #25
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Dunno about where you all live, but here the problem was not with pot but with meth - and meth users are the saddest waste of skin i've ever seen. They have no problem making horrible decisions that result in great loss and harm to others. On the good side, they tend to become real obvious as they get further and further into their addiction. See a serious tweaker and you start holding onto your possesions and don't turn your back. Thanks to making most pseudoephredine cold meds non-OTC the local maker trade has dropped dramatically (gee - ya think big pharma thought we were all having that many colds?) and it's tougher to bring it up from Mexico. The thing that is scaring the hell out of me right now is prescription drugs being abused! I have a messed up relative who is stealing and being worthless and is crushing and snorting pills made dissolve slowly. Bad thing is the physical effects aren't as obvious (maybe yet), but he's a crooked liar and thief - and it's hard for me to spot when he's straight or messed up. Pitiful. Think we've got enough drugs in this country? Here's a thought - no charge to big pharma - how about time limited drugs? Effective for a month or two, then active agents turn inert?
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:39 PM   #26
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Hummm. I have been a fan of decriminalization since back in the day when I used the stuff. I am sure the reality would be mixed. Maybe some people who wouldn't otherwise use drugs would try them because the legal stigma disappeared - who knows for sure. But the savings to society would be immense. First we could cut out billions in the direct drug war - DEA, military, etc. Then we could erase billions more that fund local police efforts to enforce the dumb laws. Then we could reduce the high insurance rates and anguish resulting from the high volume of burglary/robbery needed to pay for overpriced narcotics. Then we could devote a small fraction of the savings to a for-real drug treatment and anti-drug propaganda program. Most of those who would fall by the way after decriminalization already do in the present environment. But now they face a life of degradation, crime and, ultimately, prison -- much worse than the drug addiction itself.
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:42 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Rambler View Post
As long as it causes no harm or cost to others, OK. But don't expect me to pay the bills, medical, liability or otherwise. In other words, stay off the roads, out of the workforce, etc where your habit could cause harm...and pay for your habit without harming others (you can't take my property and sell it to pay for your habit nor your subsistence, and you can't tax me - place me in indenture - to support you or your habit, either). THAT is the American thing to do.
R
Sounds like all the same ills as alcohol, so you think we should bring back Prohibition?

As for the taxes. Right now you get no revenues from the drug trade, if it was legalized you'd get revenues from drug companies (or whoever became the supplier) and a reduction in costs to incarcerate folks no?

Again, my interest is as a taxpayer, not an advocate of marijuana...and this is not an easy black-white debate from my POV either.
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Old 03-23-2008, 03:14 PM   #28
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Dunno about where you all live, but here the problem was not with pot but with meth - and meth users are the saddest waste of skin i've ever seen. They have no problem making horrible decisions that result in great loss and harm to others.
one such "waste of skin" was a very dear friend of mine, now dead due to meth use. i knew he tried it a few times at parties but i didn't realize until it was too late that he had turned into a habitual user. this was just a few years before it became widely known as to how very & quickly addictive crystal meth is.

far from a waste of skin, my friend was a self-made, multi-millionaire, highly successful in his career & respected by many. he gave to charities and was a long-time big brother to a guy who grew up to become successful in his own right. on his death he left money to those who he never met but who he felt contributed to the good in his life.

he fell into a bad scene, got addicted & died because of it. but i would not be so quick to label my friend.
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Old 03-23-2008, 10:39 PM   #29
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Sorry about your friend - he sounds like he was a wonderful person before he became a meth addict and i'm sure you miss that person. Do you miss the meth addict? I miss my relative too - but i have no use for the person he is today. Sure hope he comes back as i miss him - but he's the one in charge of that. I have no desire to provide him continued access to our house so he can rob us more and buy more pills and continue his downward slide. Perhaps the odd thing is that if someone is a high functioning alchoholic or smoker or heroin addict i don't really care - it's when people fail to maintain their part of the social contract that i feel my contract with them has been dissolved. And i think everyone is responsible for their own actions.
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:33 AM   #30
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who would you rather have on the highway with you, a 25-year-old who just smoked a joint or a 72-year-old who has already popped his fifth legal pill of the day?
If the prescription pills effect the abilities of the 72 year old person they can be charged and convicted of DUI also, even though the pills are prescribed.
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Old 03-24-2008, 06:49 AM   #31
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I watched a documentary film on ShoTime this morning, "American Drug War: The Last White Hope" (2007).

I have to say it was rather an eye opener for me. I would need to watch it at least a second time in order to comprehend it all,,,, it was just so shocking for me to hear many of the thngs said. The people interviewed seemed to have been quite credible with unique inside views in many instances.

I'm not really good at synopses, but some of the salient points for me:

A huge number of people are incarcerated in the USA, the vast majority of whom are non violent offenders. Privately owned/run prisons are a huge cash cows. Huge amounts of money are being spent on our "war" on drugs, and the criminalization of addiction is supplying an endless "resource" for these prisons. The CIA itself is/was involved in the actual transport of illegal drugs into the USA (Iran-Contra/Oliver North Scandal). This is related to the use of heroin, e.g., as an agent of genocide for black Americans, as well as supporting the extreme need for prisons. Even tho' we are engaged on a war on terror, with supposedly more secure borders, etc. more drugs then ever make it into the USA. Before we invaded Afghanistan, there was no heroin being imported from there as Al Qaeda had clamped down on poppy farmers. Now, 80% of our illegal heroin originates from Afghanistan.

The film made a very reasoned & convincing case for legalizing marijuana, particularly for medicinal purposes. But also that other drugs could be "tolerated" and the $ spent on the "war on drugs" would be better put to use treating addicts & education.

Here's the ShoTime schedule for when it is shown again. Showtime - Movies - American Drug War - Main
I might watch it again....... or just pull my head back under the covers.....
I beleive it was the late GREAT Dick Nixon who first used the term "War on Drug". Now almost 36 years later the U.S government is still fighting the so called "War on Drugs".

As for the contention that "The CIA itself is/was involved in the actual transport of illegal drugs into the USA (Iran-Contra/Oliver North Scandal). This is related to the use of heroin, e.g., as an agent of genocide for black Americans, as well as supporting the extreme need for prisons". Statements like this and contentions like this can only help to feed and fuel statements like those by Pastor Wright as it refers to the U.S government spreading of AIDS in the black community.

This along with the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Males can only lead to and fuel the distrust that some of our fellow Americans have of the U.S government.

Bad Blood: A Case Study of the Tuskegee Syphilis Project - Case Study Collection - National Center for Case Study Teaching in Science

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Old 03-24-2008, 08:14 AM   #32
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but i have no problem with my airline pilot peeing in a cup. now what to do about alcohol? what to do about prescription drugs?

who would you rather have on the highway with you, a 25-year-old who just smoked a joint or a 72-year-old who has already popped his fifth legal pill of the day?
Neither, unless the pills the 72 y.o. were cholesterol or HBP pills. If they alter his ability to drive or function, he should not be driving...legal pills, illegal tokes, or legal drinks all included in the above statement.

Do you have a problem with a forklift driver in Home Depot (or in a warehouse) peeing in a cup? what about taxi drivers? or how about truck drivers?  Since the effects of illicit drugs typically last much longer than alcohol, and since those taking the drugs (or toking) don't think they are still impaired, the problems I mention occur. BTW, if you are over the limit for alcohol and do any of these activities, you should get some time behind bars, IMHO. Those who undertake to do drugs or drink alcohol and drive or work while thus impaired are infringing on MY right to freedom!
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:35 AM   #33
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Glad you picked up on this aspect of my OP, Wags, as the documentary was about so much more than legalizing mj.

Quote:
Statements like this and contentions like this can only help to feed and fuel statements like those by Pastor Wright as it refers to the U.S government spreading of AIDS in the black community.

This along with the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Males can only lead to and fuel the distrust that some of our fellow Americans have of the U.S government.
More than mere statements and contentions, *if* there is a basis of fact & truth in Booth's documentary, then to my mind it is a lot easier to understand the Rev Wright's "blasphemous" preachings against the USA.

The distrust might have a much wider following, if we take our head out from under the covers? Scarey!
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Old 03-24-2008, 04:02 PM   #34
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Sorry about your friend - he sounds like he was a wonderful person before he became a meth addict and i'm sure you miss that person. Do you miss the meth addict? I miss my relative too - but i have no use for the person he is today. Sure hope he comes back as i miss him - but he's the one in charge of that. I have no desire to provide him continued access to our house so he can rob us more and buy more pills and continue his downward slide. Perhaps the odd thing is that if someone is a high functioning alchoholic or smoker or heroin addict i don't really care - it's when people fail to maintain their part of the social contract that i feel my contract with them has been dissolved. And i think everyone is responsible for their own actions.


he was wonderful before meth and during meth and a wonderful memory after death. that "everyone is responsible for their own actions" does not exempt me from doing what i can to help. i carry with me a manageable amount of guilt for not being there, for not knowing enough of the seriousness of his situation because i had too much on my plate then. had i known better, had i more strength or less of an ordeal at that time, i believe he would still be alive today.

unless someone has turned to the point of personal attack, i’ve pretty high tolerance for collateral damage caused even to me in the wake of their own self-destruction. and when i have the strength i will bend over backwards to help a friend, even if it means hurting my back a bit. i find interesting the phrasing that you “have no use for (your relative the way) he is today.” one might argue that were it not for the troubles of others we’d never have a chance to practice our own compassion. perhaps your relative’s addiction is really your opportunity in disguise.

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If the prescription pills effect the abilities of the 72 year old person they can be charged and convicted of DUI also, even though the pills are prescribed.


is there a breathalizer for that? how about the 82-year-old who is not on any mind altering drugs. is that person's reaction time better than a 25-year-old high on pot?

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Do you have a problem with a forklift driver in Home Depot (or in a warehouse) peeing in a cup? what about taxi drivers? or how about truck drivers?


not much difference between a pilot or truck driver (though also not much difference between a drunk truck driver or a sober sleepless one); big difference between a pilot and a forklift operator. my simple little point was that i think there is a huge difference between a pilot peeing to assure safely at the helm and me being forced to pee so that i will not endanger my desk.

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 Since the effects of illicit drugs typically last much longer than alcohol, and since those taking the drugs (or toking) don't think they are still impaired, the problems I mention occur. BTW, if you are over the limit for alcohol and do any of these activities, you should get some time behind bars, IMHO. Those who undertake to do drugs or drink alcohol and drive or work while thus impaired are infringing on MY right to freedom!
how about the sober but feeble minded fumbling for change at the supermarket. any infringements on my freedom to breeze on through with my five items? i figure i’m taking my chances as soon as i leave the house.
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Old 03-26-2008, 01:04 AM   #35
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I started my life more Republican and am now much more Libertarian leaning.

Surfdaddy's laws of government:

1 - Defense. It's in the Constitution as a primary role. Don't make it sound like a crime to spend money to protect the country (NOT to be construed as support for our current adventures in Iraq).
2 - Government should not substitute for good individual judgment. It's not your mamma and should not be acting like her. That means if you signed a deal for a subprime loan, too bad. McCain has it right.
3 - Don't limit anything consenting individuals want to do. But prosecute the h*ll out of any activities that cause harm to others. This means legalize drugs, prostitution. Really, let's spend our tax dollars on something valuable like reducing crime or educating people. Why is it legal to ride ATVs which cause injury to many, but you can't smoke MJ in your house? Swimming causes drowning, better make that illegal. And I have personally never taken an illegal drug!
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:45 AM   #36
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Since I FIRE'd I've had time to enjoy pot. I have a California medical marijuana card (for a bogus condition), which gives me access to pot "dispensaries", which are now starting to pay taxes on the sale of the pot. The law also provides provisions for growing it legally. Almost all the pot sold in the dispensaries is local hydroponic, meaning it's grown indoors, usually in warehouses. I can even buy organic pot. I'm buying from an established business that has a reputation to uphold, so they have a reason not to sell pot with impurities, or sell to kids. The hoops and fees to the medical card program keep out kids and first time dabblers. And at a dispensary I was able to try out and buy a Volcano vaporizer, which is a healthier way of inhaling than smoking it.

This form of legal production and distribution is much better for society and users than having gun toting guard thugs around hidden illegal outdoor gardens on public lands, using toxic chemicals in the production that later leach into groundwater.
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:22 AM   #37
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is there a breathalizer for that? how about the 82-year-old who is not on any mind altering drugs. is that person's reaction time better than a 25-year-old high on pot?

Actually if the person appears to be intoxicated and blows .000 on the breathalyzer then a urine or blood test is requested. If that test is refused it is treated the same as a refusal of all tests. In Florida if an officer stops a person who does not appear to be safe to operate a motor vehicle due to advanced age (or any other reason not related to drugs/alcohol) a driving test can be mandated. IIRC the test is all phases, so the person will have to not only prove acceptable knowledge levels, but also show that they can safely operate the motor vehicle.
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:04 PM   #38
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From an employer point of view (and all of us on this board should consider ourselves employers - we own the companies!), we need to be very careful what we make legal! . . .Do you want the companies you own to falter because of drug related liability losses?. . .those of you who are already FIREd may theoretically find yourselves having to climb back in the saddle due to lost profits, reduced diividends, and falling (worse than now) share values OF YOUR COMPANIES! Is that what we really want?
Hmmmm. Personal freedom v corporate profits. Interesting. Also interesting to note that LBYM and ER are detrimental to corporate profits in many cases. Perhaps they should be outlawed as well.
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:18 PM   #39
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Decriminalize, tax and regulate marijuana for starters. Don't decriminalize anything harder until we can observe the social/financial cost/benefit of doing so for a few years.

Obviously, the same restrictions on usage (legal age limits, penalties for driving under the influence, et cetera) would apply as for alcohol and other controlled substances when are legal when prescribed under a doctor's care.

And if we don't have the gumption to do that, at least let doctors prescribe it for patients who are very sick and/or nauseous, and have trouble getting nourishment.
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:23 PM   #40
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Since I FIRE'd I've had time to enjoy pot. I have a California medical marijuana card (for a bogus condition), which gives me access to pot "dispensaries", which are now starting to pay taxes on the sale of the pot. The law also provides provisions for growing it legally. Almost all the pot sold in the dispensaries is local hydroponic, meaning it's grown indoors, usually in warehouses. I can even buy organic pot. I'm buying from an established business that has a reputation to uphold, so they have a reason not to sell pot with impurities, or sell to kids. The hoops and fees to the medical card program keep out kids and first time dabblers. And at a dispensary I was able to try out and buy a Volcano vaporizer, which is a healthier way of inhaling than smoking it.

This form of legal production and distribution is much better for society and users than having gun toting guard thugs around hidden illegal outdoor gardens on public lands, using toxic chemicals in the production that later leach into groundwater.
Eazey, can you talk a bit about the dispensaries? You see other clientele there? Everyone appear on the up and up? They operate like a pharmacy or something else?
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