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Old 03-25-2008, 09:34 PM   #61
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Eh, they've all stated privately they won't overturn the will of the people. Clinton aides says she has to catch up and pass Barack in popular vote to have a chance of swaying supers, and that's pretty darn near impossible. Something like 20 point landslides in every state here on out.
"The will of the people" is a phrase that can be interpreted many different ways. I'm confident that each campaign will define it such that it favors them.
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:44 AM   #62
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And many of Obama's staunchest defenders (white & black) will defend him "in any event simply because he is a black man" ?
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:21 AM   #63
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And many of Obama's staunchest defenders (white & black) will defend him "in any event simply because he is a black man" ?
Thats pretty obvious.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:27 AM   #64
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Who said anything about race?

IMO, stepping back to Carter politics (pacification, inaction, hand-wringing) is not a good direction for the country.
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Reverend Wright's full video
Old 03-26-2008, 12:53 PM   #65
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Reverend Wright's full video

But um, I suspect that folks who watch the entirety of the videos (not just the soothing first couple of minutes) will not come away with a feeling that "there's nothing wrong with Reverend Wright."

After condemning the hijackers for attacking unarmed civilians, he expands on all of the "terrorist" acts (he calls them that) that the U.S. has been involved in, including Hiroshima, for example. He clarifies how the terrible description of enemies in Scriptures, which apply to the hijackers, equally apply to us...and thus "the chickens have come home to roost". So no, I would say that most people would not have their discomfort alleviated by watching these expanded clips.

However, I will say this: It was nice to see the Reverend speaking in more "muted" tones in some portions of the expanded video. And I looked at some other Wright clips on YouTube and can see that he has a lovely singing voice, and is obviously capable of very nice sermons. Like here's one on advice for adolescents, for example:


I'd wondered why Trinity hadn't pushed the expanded "angry" sermons to be shown on main stream media, and now I see why. They would have been better off showing sermons like the one I linked to here, to show the Reverend's "other side".

I'm still not sure if this changes my view of Obama's participation in that church, but I admit it has softened my reactions.
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:38 PM   #66
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:42 PM   #67
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Im not buying the whole Obama went to church with this pastor and didn't agree with the message. Guess in the end thats why we get a vote isn't it
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:45 PM   #68
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:46 PM   #69
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:28 PM   #70
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It was kind of a mixed bag for me. I understand much of where the pastor is coming from, and it was valuable to hear the overall context, but I am bothered by a general tone of 'victim-ism' that comes across in his sermons.

No question, blacks have been victimized. But I don't see the value of too much dwelling on it. Acknowledge it, yes. But then move on and think positive - how to move forward. The people that I know that have overcome obstacles have not dwelled on them, they concentrate on moving forward.

I guess it's all a matter of degree, but it seemed a bit over the top for me. Maybe I would feel differently if I were black, but there seemed to be just a bit too much 'negative energy' there.

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Old 03-26-2008, 07:57 PM   #71
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It was kind of a mixed bag for me. I understand much of where the pastor is coming from, and it was valuable to hear the overall context, but I am bothered by a general tone of 'victim-ism' that comes across in his sermons.

No question, blacks have been victimized. But I don't see the value of too much dwelling on it. Acknowledge it, yes. But then move on and think positive - how to move forward. The people that I know that have overcome obstacles have not dwelled on them, they concentrate on moving forward.

I guess it's all a matter of degree, but it seemed a bit over the top for me. Maybe I would feel differently if I were black, but there seemed to be just a bit too much 'negative energy' there.

-ERD50
I think you will find a lot of very liberal people of all colors who agree with you - as many people have been trying to say - including Obama - it's a generation thing.

now let's all move on...
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:15 PM   #72
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No question, blacks have been victimized. But I don't see the value of too much dwelling on it. Acknowledge it, yes. But then move on and think positive - how to move forward. The people that I know that have overcome obstacles have not dwelled on them, they concentrate on moving forward.

I guess it's all a matter of degree, but it seemed a bit over the top for me. Maybe I would feel differently if I were black, but there seemed to be just a bit too much 'negative energy' there.

-ERD50
Yes, it's all a matter of perspective and if you were black, I think you would feel differently. Consider this most recent study. Whites Underestmate The Costs Of Being Black, Study Finds
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:57 PM   #73
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Yes, it's all a matter of perspective and if you were black, I think you would feel differently. Consider this most recent study. Whites Underestmate The Costs Of Being Black, Study Finds
OK, I read the article - For me personally, it is not so much a matter of underestimating the 'cost of being black', but whether dwelling on it is the best route to overcoming it. I thought there was a touch too much 'dwelling' in those sermons.

So don't ignore the past, or deny it, or sweep it under the rug. But don't waste too much energy on it either. What is done is done (that sounds trite when I type it - I don't mean it that way), it is the past, figure out your next move.

An analogy relevant to investing: I've made some really bad investments in the past. It didn't help to just get mad, blame the lousy, no good CEO for tanking the stock or whatever, or give up; but it did help me to learn from it, and plan my next moves.

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Old 03-26-2008, 09:56 PM   #74
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:30 PM   #75
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Ah yes, this is just a "feeling" those white folks have - all we need to do is sit those misguided typical white people down & explain to them how guilty they are so they won't have that "feeling" anymore. Maybe have them watch a lot of Rev Wright videos & not let them go to the bathroom till they are cleared of that misperception.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:34 PM   #76
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An analogy relevant to investing: I've made some really bad investments in the past. It didn't help to just get mad, blame the lousy, no good CEO for tanking the stock or whatever, or give up; but it did help me to learn from it, and plan my next moves.

-ERD50
Not sure the analogy to investing really works when you're trying to achieve balance and equity to compensate for past wrongs and to achieve some type of closure. On a personal level, we all have to move beyond the past; however, the past can be difficult to move beyond if you have felt you've been wronged, unless you believe that present circumstances balance things out. And for many blacks, present circumstances don't really balance things out.

Have you been following the Virginia Tech settlements that parents and other family members of the slain students and faculty have been trying to work through with the State? It shows that for many it's all about closure for a perceived wrong. This is a classic case of where the State or Virginia Tech is not really at fault for a deranged student going on a killing spree. The State has funded a victims fund -- it's a relatively modest fund but under State law the State or VT cannot be held responsible for the killings and if it were liable the liability would be capped at $100K per claim. Of course, no amount of money can compensate for the loss of a child, but the State is basically offering $100K to each family and covering medical expenses associated with helping family members get through this calamity. The settlement discussions are not going well mainly because settlement does not work out to balance the wrong that the family members feel need to occur, but it's the best settlement the State can offer! Here, the perspectives are from totally different vantage points, which I think was the point of the article I referenced.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:52 PM   #77
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Ah yes, this is just a "feeling" those white folks have - all we need to do is sit those misguided typical white people down & explain to them how guilty they are so they won't have that "feeling" anymore. Maybe have them watch a lot of Rev Wright videos & not let them go to the bathroom till they are cleared of that misperception.
uh, I think you missed the point....
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:00 PM   #78
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uh, I think you missed the point....

I don't think I did - but you may have missed mine.
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:27 PM   #79
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Ah yes, this is just a "feeling" those white folks have - all we need to do is sit those misguided typical white people down & explain to them how guilty they are so they won't have that "feeling" anymore. Maybe have them watch a lot of Rev Wright videos & not let them go to the bathroom till they are cleared of that misperception.
It is too late for me to see where the senator used the word "feeling". If he did as Gumby says; it was insenitive use of the word.
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:52 PM   #80
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Ah yes, this is just a "feeling" those white folks have - all we need to do is sit those misguided typical white people down & explain to them how guilty they are so they won't have that "feeling" anymore. Maybe have them watch a lot of Rev Wright videos & not let them go to the bathroom till they are cleared of that misperception.
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It is too late for me to see where the senator used the word "feeling". If he did as Gumby says; it was insenitive use of the word.
Yes it is late, but I'll take the time to check it.

BTW - my response was more relating to Gumby's assertion rather than any direct quote of Obama's

But for the record:

"Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race."

(Note the word "feel" - racial injustices toward blacks are presented as fact -whereas perspectives of some white people are presented as a feeling)

"Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch."

("as far as they're concerned" ?? He could have left that out of the sentence, no?)

"And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding."

(Note the use of the word "concerns" and not "facts")

He talks a good game - but that's all it is.

I am reminded of the phrase "You can't hide your red neck under all that long hippie hair" I think Obama has done a good job of hiding his prejudices up till now because he talks the talk, he's fairly new to the national scene, & hasn't been examined that closely outside of his former local power base in Chicago.
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