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Old 10-25-2012, 03:13 PM   #101
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Now do the same comparison between a cd and a record on a good player. Bet the same can be said about the LP. The LP will sound more full and alive.
You can't really do the same test. The LP is really a different source, and can't be compared bit-by-bit. And you'd never get them time synced perfectly enough - motor speeds, wow & flutter will wipe out the comparison.

LPs go through complimentary RIAA equalization curves, boosting the highs and cutting the lows as the record is cut, then applying the opposite curve on playback. Combine that with the fact that a cartridge is a reactive device, and there are phase shifts all over the place.

Also, while mastering the LP, the engineer will compress the volume and adjust the EQ differently from what they do for a CD. Even if you got everything aligned, much of the delta would be intentional on the part of the engineer.

I don't know if LPs sound more 'alive' or 'better' than a CD or not. I'm just too pragmatic to deal with everything you need to do to maintain vinyl as pristine as a digital version. And then how do you get source material that doesn't have built in clicks, pops, and surface noise? I assume you need to buy only audiophile quality pressings, and those cost $$$.

As far as 'fuller, or more 'alive', that can often be attributed to distortion or other non-linear sound attributes. Some may prefer it, but it is debatable if it is better.

I'd like to experiment with higher bit rate stuff - the 24 bit 96Khz I think is the next step up. But I think you need a DAC with special drivers for that, and I really like the fact that I can plug in my 16 bit 44.1KHz DAC into any USB port, Mac or Linux (and I assume windows), and it just works. I do have a CD player that will play SACD, and I have one SACD. It sounds good, but better? I dunno. I just know that I think CD specs are marginal, I sure don't want to do down from that.

My DAC (an inexpensive Nu-force unit) has a volume control on it. So I go right from my little netbook, to DAC to amplifier. No pre-amp or anything in between. I think that has done more for my sound quality than anything - it just eliminates 'stuff' in the chain that makes noise, or poor connections, etc.

-ERD50
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:16 PM   #102
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If by that you mean a non-synchro trans, which in that 1938 2 ton you do, yes, I can drive one. Lots of fun.

I have only had 2 vehicles with automatic trans in my life, a Taurus driven by my former wife and a Ford 250 pickup with a C-6. She needed that auto for crawling along I-5 when she was commuting to UW. But she prefers manuals too.

Ha
Never drove one of those non-synchro jobs but used to rev-match my old Saturn and shift without the clutch. That was a good discipline. My dad had an old "bread truck" for his work vehicle. That thing was a bear (never drove it, before my driving time).

Everyone should learn the skill of driving a manual transmission. Unfortunately, my knee started hurting so I've become less of a fan. I have a CVT car right now. CVTs require getting used to. Everything seems backwards in the way they work.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:03 PM   #103
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Photo slides, projectors, and portable screens to project them on.

I'm in the final stages of digitizing my large collection of slides, and it is SO much nicer to have them on the computer.

I bought a good scanner that does four slides at a time, and it was far less painful than I expected.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:37 PM   #104
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Everyone should learn the skill of driving a manual transmission. Unfortunately, my knee started hurting so I've become less of a fan. I have a CVT car right now. CVTs require getting used to. Everything seems backwards in the way they work.
I agree - everyone should learn to drive a manual.
If for no other reason than if you want to keep travel costs when you go to europe - you'll need to drive stick. And if you don't specify automatic - you will definitely get a stickshift at the rental place.

I have a CVT too - the only thing I don't like about my highlander hybrid is that it couldn't come in a manual transmission. My first car EVER that wasn't a stick.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:45 PM   #105
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Now do the same comparison between a cd and a record on a good player. Bet the same can be said about the LP. The LP will sound more full and alive.
I really miss the scratching between tracks.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:38 PM   #106
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That sounds like my parents who refused to wear seatbelts because they did not want to be trapped under water.

According to myth busters neither would work because the pressure differential is too great.

MythBusters Episode 72: Underwater Car
I got a $5 emergency escape hammer from HarborFreight. It's also got a seatbelt cutter. I keep it in my center console. Got one for my son too. I don't see it on their site now, but I'm sure you can find them elsewhere.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:06 PM   #107
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I got a $5 emergency escape hammer from HarborFreight. It's also got a seatbelt cutter. I keep it in my center console. Got one for my son too. I don't see it on their site now, but I'm sure you can find them elsewhere.
Something like this...

http://www.amazon.com/LifeHammer-Ori.../dp/B000BN3A4Y

Problem is you have to remain calm enough to use it. I remember seeing a segment on one the news programs on how to escape from a sinking car. Probably on youtube somewhere.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:34 PM   #108
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Careful about ditching paper maps and relying on your phone. I was on a trip last year organized by others, and we hit a closed road or got lost or something in the NC mountains with no phone signal, so no maps. I haven't pulled out my maps in awhile, but I still keep them in my car just in case. (snip)
I am just in the middle of an audiobook where the same thing happens to a group of people, only in Wyoming in the middle of winter, with awful results.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:37 PM   #109
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:12 AM   #110
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You can't really do the same test. The LP is really a different source, and can't be compared bit-by-bit. And you'd never get them time synced perfectly enough - motor speeds, wow & flutter will wipe out the comparison.

LPs go through complimentary RIAA equalization curves, boosting the highs and cutting the lows as the record is cut, then applying the opposite curve on playback. Combine that with the fact that a cartridge is a reactive device, and there are phase shifts all over the place.

Also, while mastering the LP, the engineer will compress the volume and adjust the EQ differently from what they do for a CD. Even if you got everything aligned, much of the delta would be intentional on the part of the engineer.

I don't know if LPs sound more 'alive' or 'better' than a CD or not. I'm just too pragmatic to deal with everything you need to do to maintain vinyl as pristine as a digital version. And then how do you get source material that doesn't have built in clicks, pops, and surface noise? I assume you need to buy only audiophile quality pressings, and those cost $$$.

As far as 'fuller, or more 'alive', that can often be attributed to distortion or other non-linear sound attributes. Some may prefer it, but it is debatable if it is better.

I'd like to experiment with higher bit rate stuff - the 24 bit 96Khz I think is the next step up. But I think you need a DAC with special drivers for that, and I really like the fact that I can plug in my 16 bit 44.1KHz DAC into any USB port, Mac or Linux (and I assume windows), and it just works. I do have a CD player that will play SACD, and I have one SACD. It sounds good, but better? I dunno. I just know that I think CD specs are marginal, I sure don't want to do down from that.

My DAC (an inexpensive Nu-force unit) has a volume control on it. So I go right from my little netbook, to DAC to amplifier. No pre-amp or anything in between. I think that has done more for my sound quality than anything - it just eliminates 'stuff' in the chain that makes noise, or poor connections, etc.

-ERD50
Can't argue with the convenience factor of CD (or MP3) over an LP. It is about the sound. Do a comparison for yourself-that is what convinced me a few years ago. Midlevel cd player was blown away by midlevel phonograph.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:58 PM   #111
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Can't argue with the convenience factor of CD (or MP3) over an LP. It is about the sound. Do a comparison for yourself-that is what convinced me a few years ago. Midlevel cd player was blown away by midlevel phonograph.
I've noticed that. A lot of that has to do with what happens to the audio between when it is recorded, and when it hits the disks.

The folks mastering recordings for vinyl seem inclined to simply do minor cleanup and RIAA equalization (the stuff that compensates for the physics of tiny needles racking little wiggles in resilient plastics).

The folks mastering CDs unfortunately will often do one of two bad things. Sometimes, less often than when CDs first came out, they'll just digitize the vinyl master recordings. This produces a CD that sounds "thin" or washed out, as the CD playback process has a very different impact on the signal than the electromechanical phonograph needle. The other extreme is the person enamored of their shiny new digital mastering suite, busily over-compressing so quiet passages are almost as loud as the loudest "so you won't miss the fine details", and "enhancing" the audio with digital signal processing effects.

If I wanted "concert hall" I'd press that damn button on my amplifier, thankyouverymuch. (There's a reason I run the thing in "straight" or "direct" mode...)
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:06 PM   #112
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I think you are correct for a large part of the difference. LPs are harder to master, so more care is taken. COnversely, you can compress the hell out of a cd.

But-I have compared well recorded CDs to a well recorded LP of the same album, and the LP consistently came out ahead. Had friends listen and come to the same conclusion. NOt sure if a difference in my equipment or the recording medium accounted for that.

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I've noticed that. A lot of that has to do with what happens to the audio between when it is recorded, and when it hits the disks.

The folks mastering recordings for vinyl seem inclined to simply do minor cleanup and RIAA equalization (the stuff that compensates for the physics of tiny needles racking little wiggles in resilient plastics).

The folks mastering CDs unfortunately will often do one of two bad things. Sometimes, less often than when CDs first came out, they'll just digitize the vinyl master recordings. This produces a CD that sounds "thin" or washed out, as the CD playback process has a very different impact on the signal than the electromechanical phonograph needle. The other extreme is the person enamored of their shiny new digital mastering suite, busily over-compressing so quiet passages are almost as loud as the loudest "so you won't miss the fine details", and "enhancing" the audio with digital signal processing effects.

If I wanted "concert hall" I'd press that damn button on my amplifier, thankyouverymuch. (There's a reason I run the thing in "straight" or "direct" mode...)
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:15 PM   #113
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Can't argue with the convenience factor of CD (or MP3) over an LP. It is about the sound. Do a comparison for yourself-that is what convinced me a few years ago. Midlevel cd player was blown away by midlevel phonograph.
Maybe I'll give this a try this w/e. I think I have both vinyl and CD of Coltrane's "A Love Supreme".

As M Paquette points out, there will be differences in the mastering, so any preference could depend on the selection. But I suspect that I just wont get past the occasional click and pop and surface noise that are present in most LPs.

-ERD50
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:20 PM   #114
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Maybe I'll give this a try this w/e. I think I have both vinyl and CD of Coltrane's "A Love Supreme".

As M Paquette points out, there will be differences in the mastering, so any preference could depend on the selection. But I suspect that I just wont get past the occasional click and pop and surface noise that are present in most LPs.

-ERD50
Maybe you guys should start a thread on things audio?
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:21 PM   #115
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LPs are harder to master, so more care is taken. COnversely, you can compress the hell out of a cd.
Not sure I follow this. LPs are harder to master because there are more limitations (groove excursions versus time and not to exceed tracking limits for example). So the mastering takes those limitations into account, sometimes to the detriment of the sound.

I don't see where compression is affected by the medium. I can compress the heck out of a signal, and record it to CD or LP. What's the difference?

That's not to say that some engineers didn't do a bad job of mastering the CD, and possibly making it sound worse than the LP. Often, the original master was made brighter to account for playback response limitations, and that becomes over-bright when applied to a CD with such flat response. But that can go either way.

-ERD50
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:30 PM   #116
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But I suspect that I just wont get past the occasional click and pop and surface noise that are present in most LPs.

-ERD50
And some people don't get past that. That doesn't bother me. On my system most LPs have a better sense of soundstage than their counterpart CD. I enjoy that enough that it compensates.
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:30 PM   #117
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Maybe you guys should start a thread on things audio?
Yeah! Turntables! Giant magneplanar vs electrostatic speakers! And endless arguments over whether Russian or East German triodes sound better in fine audiophile equipment!

All obsolete, all the time...
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:33 PM   #118
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Not sure I follow this. LPs are harder to master because there are more limitations (groove excursions versus time and not to exceed tracking limits for example). So the mastering takes those limitations into account, sometimes to the detriment of the sound.

I don't see where compression is affected by the medium. I can compress the heck out of a signal, and record it to CD or LP. What's the difference?

That's not to say that some engineers didn't do a bad job of mastering the CD, and possibly making it sound worse than the LP. Often, the original master was made brighter to account for playback response limitations, and that becomes over-bright when applied to a CD with such flat response. But that can go either way.

-ERD50
You are correct-the mastering engineer can overly compress the sound on both CD and LP. The problem comes in with the CD because they can then make that overly compressed sound VERY LOUD by jacking the recording level well into the red. This gives a harsh sound. That can't be done with LPs. They won't play properly.
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:34 PM   #119
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Yeah! Turntables! Giant magneplanar vs electrostatic speakers! And endless arguments over whether Russian or East German triodes sound better in fine audiophile equipment!

All obsolete, all the time...
Neither! It's NOS US and western Euro tubes you want!!
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:33 PM   #120
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This is what you all need: a tube amplifier with a docking station for your iPod.

Old meets new! And that brings your 1940-1960 electronics into the new digital age. No more obsolescence.

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