What’s your 17

[bmcgonig]

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Originally Posted by Winemaker +1 I wish the time was spent studying the Constitution and the Federalist Papers.

How do you know those kids haven't read their Hamilton and Madison already?

[USGrant1962]

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Originally Posted by bmcgonig How do you know those kids haven't read their Hamilton and Madison already?

[Winemaker]

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Originally Posted by bmcgonig How do you know those kids haven't read their Hamilton and Madison already?

I'm sure those kids and most adults haven't read one iota of the tyranny our fore fathers suffered; unjustified search and seizure, taxation without representation, quartering of troops in your households while they ate you out of house and home, to name a few.

[hesperus]

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Originally Posted by Winemaker +1 I wish the time was spent studying the Constitution and the Federalist Papers.

What better way to learn the constitution than to exercise one of it's rights? They should be getting extra credit

[Free bird]

Some sad old people on this site.

[Amethyst]

Actually, I would expect the learning to be quite fresh in the young minds.

In my high school, we read the Federalist Papers and held a two-week-long mock Constitutional Convention.

Recently, a high school student of my acquaintance played John Adams defending the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre ("Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.") The project involved a lot of research and inspired an interest in where our modern laws come from, and the dilemma of whether to be a "patriot" for America or Great Britain.

It was amazing to hear a teenager speculate about how some people at that time might have felt bullied and peer-pressured into abandoning the Crown they'd been taught to revere. The kids learned that great issues are never as clear-cut as we'd like.

One tiny caveat: Not that many Americans can consider the founders to be, in any sense, our forefathers. That's just a vocabulary quibble, though...not a dig at you I know what you meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker I'm sure those kids and most adults haven't read one iota of the tyranny our fore fathers suffered; unjustified search and seizure, taxation without representation, quartering of troops in your households while they ate you out of house and home, to name a few.

[joeea]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst One tiny caveat: Not that many Americans can consider the founders to be, in any sense, our forefathers.

Are you trying to say that we are a nation of immigrants?

[Amethyst]

Just quibbling about words, like I do sometimes.

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Originally Posted by joeea Are you trying to say that we are a nation of immigrants?

[copyright1997reloaded]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst It was amazing to hear a teenager speculate about how some people at that time might have felt bullied and peer-pressured into abandoning the Crown they'd been taught to revere. The kids learned that great issues are never as clear-cut as we'd like.

There were many Colonists loyal to the crown. Quite a few fled to New York City, which was a loyalist stronghold during the revolutionary war.

As with most things, there where people loyal to the crown, against the crown, and many who didn't care. The participation rate in the colonial army and other militias was about 15% of the Colonialist population.

[copyright1997reloaded]

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Originally Posted by Free bird Some sad old people on this site.

Why is that? Because some people don't agree with you? Because some people think that the mob shouldn't rule, or that enumerated rights need to be protected? Does that make them "sad old people"?

Hey, I thought it was important to not call people names on these forums. I'd consider "sad old" to not be very engaging if one really wants a fruitful discussion.

[KCGeezer]

The discussion did not start out about “mob rule” and I disagree that is even part of these kids activities. The point I and others are making is that it’s encouraging to see engaged young people trying to make a positive difference in their society.

What is sad is that so many people are focused on narrow semi related issues that they lose sight of the good things happening in the world.

[copyright1997reloaded]

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Originally Posted by KCGeezer The discussion did not start out about “mob rule” and I disagree that is even part of these kids activities. The point I and others are making is that it’s encouraging to see engaged young people trying to make a positive difference in their society. What is sad is that so many people are focused on narrow semi related issues that they lose sight of the good things happening in the world.

I'm all for people making a positive difference. The question becomes what is positive, and do some efforts to make a positive difference end up having negative consequences.

For instance, the people who wanted prohibition were trying to make a positive impact on society by eliminating alcohol. There hearts were good, they saw the many negative impacts of alcoholism including loss of jobs and family violence.

Many laws were enacted that I believe infringed on citizens constitutional rights. Finally, they had enough political momentum to change the constitution via the 18th amendment. This ended up not beings such a good thing.

I am not saying the students are the same as those trying to do prohibition. Nor am I saying they are mob rule. What I am saying that I am reluctant to take away individual rights to satisfy societal problems, and that my counting to 10 uses all of the numbers, not just some of them. I'm also saying that sometimes these things spiral out of control. The French revolution started out as a good thing...it didn't end up so well...at least for the many innocents who lost their heads during the Terror: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

[Amethyst]

I see the students as the up-and-coming generation, who are going to have to work out these ethical, moral, and legal questions for themselves as they begin, as every generation must, to shape society around them. Thoughtful, nonviolent protests are one proven way to do this.

I would agree that the moment a protest devolves into mob rule, or even heavy social pressure to take part, that's a wrong turn (and should be called out as such). My loathing for peer pressure has been a driving force throughout life.

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Originally Posted by copyright1997reloaded I am not saying the students are the same as those trying to do prohibition. Nor am I saying they are mob rule. What I am saying that I am reluctant to take away individual rights to satisfy societal problems, and that my counting to 10 uses all of the numbers, not just some of them. I'm also saying that sometimes these things spiral out of control. The French revolution started out as a good thing...it didn't end up so well...at least for the many innocents who lost their heads during the Terror: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

[Winemaker]

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Originally Posted by hesperus What better way to learn the constitution than to exercise one of it's rights? They should be getting extra credit

I heartily endorse citizens to exercise their rights. However, these "innocent" students, took several brand new motor coaches to the state capital to rally about the legislature's debate over gun control, less than 2 weeks after the terrible shooting by a madman. A small number of students who didn't go were given detention. I don't think the funds were raised by bake sales, nor do I think it was a student grass roots movement. I do hope they learned that they were unwilling pawns by outside groups, as they are no longer in the headlines.

Now when I was in high school, when a few classmates found out that I was seeking to attend the Air Force Academy, their reactions were grassrooted. Pictures of the Mi Lai massacre, the napalm girl, were often taped to my locker as well as their taunts of "Baby Killer", those were genuine.

[KCGeezer]

You say the question becomes “what is positive?” That’s exactly the idea that these specific kids are exploring with “What’s your 17?” It’s a challenge to themselves and others to determine and agree upon some action(s) and act on them to improve life. True, not all attempts of proposed solutions will be effective or be proven to be in mankind’s long term benefit but they are trying. I say, good for them.

[KCGeezer]

Sorry to hear about those experiences Winemaker. I believe each of us is shaped by genetics and experience. Hopefully as this and future generations take over from us, fewer and fewer people will be subjected to ignorance, bullying, and intolerance.

As for your questioning who paid for the busses to Tallahassee, I don’t know. Sounds like a dangerous drift off topic.

[Amethyst]

"A small number of students who didn't go were given detention."

Was there another incident besides this one, where the suspension was actually for sitting alone in an unsupervised classroom - against school regulations - during the protests?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.15c5e8aa8793

I found it hard to credit that any school administrator, no matter their political leanings, would suspend a student for not joining a protest.

As for the way you were treated for wanting to go to the AF Academy - grassroots, piffle. That was peer pressure. I am old enough to recall the way people were baited and abused for being in ROTC during the Vietnam war. As a kid, I felt this was grossly unfair, even though I was against the war. But that is not very relevant to the topic of our "17 things."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker I A small number of students who didn't go were given detention. Now when I was in high school, when a few classmates found out that I was seeking to attend the Air Force Academy, their reactions were grassrooted. Pictures of the Mi Lai massacre, the napalm girl, were often taped to my locker as well as their taunts of "Baby Killer", those were genuine.

[ERD50]

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Originally Posted by Free bird Some sad old people on this site.

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Originally Posted by copyright1997reloaded Why is that? Because some people don't agree with you? Because some people think that the mob shouldn't rule, or that enumerated rights need to be protected? Does that make them "sad old people"? Hey, I thought it was important to not call people names on these forums. I'd consider "sad old" to not be very engaging if one really wants a fruitful discussion.

Especially with no context. It's just name calling.

Free bird, what are you trying to say? Can you do it politely?

-ERD50

[bmcgonig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winemaker I'm sure those kids and most adults haven't read one iota of the tyranny our fore fathers suffered; unjustified search and seizure, taxation without representation, quartering of troops in your households while they ate you out of house and home, to name a few.

I'm sure that you are NOT sure of that. Lots of kids study the lead up to the revolution. And they may still think that in this modern world, their actions are justified.

[Amethyst]

Not adding anything of substance, just hoping to see more contributions toward the "17." There are some really good posts here, and I was enjoying the thread with a wary eye toward the Topics that Must Not Be Mentioned.

Today we are snowed in, so I plan to throw away 17 items I'd been procrastinating about - mostly clothing.

I'd like to say I'll complete 17 chores I've been putting off, but really it will be lucky if I get to finish 1 or 2