Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-10-2007, 05:26 PM   #41
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Brat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,914
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Caroline, spot on!

I am one of those 'cloth coat' Republicans. A progressive. I haven't had the stomach to vote for a Republican presidential candidate for many many years. The party in the State of WA has been taken over by the Christian Right, so I haven't seen any other candidates who are suitable (could be why the state votes for Democrats).

In Oregon (my natal state) Republicans tend to be progressive and have demonstrated the ability to lead (vs push).

I think it was on CNN today where a commentator observed that Bush's venture has decreased our security because we have no forces left to project militarily.

I think it will be a LONG time before the voters trust Republicans again.
__________________

__________________
Duck bjorn.
Brat is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-10-2007, 05:30 PM   #42
Recycles dryer sheets
Elderdude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sacramento, Calif
Posts: 210
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Hmm, Brewer,
I think you have identified my problem. My game, my rules so I've decided to reverse the two and drink myself silly during his speech. Maybe he'll make sense that way.

Naww,
No way will he ever make sense. But maybe his screwed up face and verbal diarhea won't be so annoying.

Nope,
Don't guess a full twelve pack can fix that, either. What's the chance the newspaper will bother to print the entire address tomorrow? OK that's too silly, anyone know how to unblock a cable channel, say like Fox? I'm sure Limbaugh will hit the "high spots" on the radio too. Ok I better not, it took me too long to lock and load Air America.

Maybe I'll just check this group tomorrow for highlights from the "I want to kill..." group to give thier glorious praise for our brave freedom fighter and almost completed Texas air reservist.


__________________

__________________
Elderdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-10-2007, 05:58 PM   #43
Moderator Emeritus
laurence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 5,234
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Hah! Meanwhile I spent all day working with someone who has a framed picture of Dick Cheney in his cube. It's kind of fun to hear opposing opinions simultaneously! :P
__________________
laurence is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-10-2007, 07:23 PM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

The "Iraq is all about oil" argument appeals to some folks, but it really doesn't hold up to examnination. If the US were really seeking to control oil be seizing nations that have it, there are many lower risk/higher payoff opportunities than Iraq. Is Mexico quaking in their boots? Kuwait?

Perhaps next we'll next hear that the US operations in Afghanistan are because the evil US wants to corner the market on . . . ummh . . . gritty dirt?
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-10-2007, 08:22 PM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
teejayevans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,221
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Hah! Meanwhile I spent all day working with someone who has a framed picture of Dick Cheney in his cube. It's kind of fun to hear opposing opinions simultaneously! :P
Cheney is good for only 1 thing, he shoots lawyers.
Tom
__________________
teejayevans is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-10-2007, 08:57 PM   #46
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 927
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

well, of what I WANTED to hear I got "thank you and good night."

Sigh.

God help our troops and their families.

__________________
Caroline is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 12:30 AM   #47
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 78
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Maybe he should ask Saddam to take back over and fix everything he has screwed up....oops, too late
__________________
genghis is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 04:16 AM   #48
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ladelfina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,713
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

samclem.. Mexico and Kuwait have graciously allowed people like Exxon and Shell to pump it for them.

Under Saddam Hussein the oil production was state-run (but he was being courted by France and Russia; see below).

Quote:
If the US were really seeking to control oil be seizing nations that have it, there are many lower risk/higher payoff opportunities than Iraq. Is Mexico quaking in their boots? Kuwait?
Now if you'd said "Venezuela", I'd say, "let's wait and see". They HATE that (democratically-elected) Chavez guy not (primarily) because of his name-calling, but because he wants to take the oil back out of the private sphere.

Quote:
An April 2001 report by the U.S. Council on Foreign Relations and the Baker Institute for Public Policy -- commissioned by Cheney to help shape the new energy policy -- also devoted serious attention to Iraq.

The report, "Strategic Energy Policy Challenges for the 21st Century," complained about Hussein's oil leverage:

"Tight markets have increased U.S. and global vulnerability to disruption and provided adversaries undue potential influence over the price of oil. Iraq has become a key 'swing' producer, posing a difficult situation for the U.S. government. ... Iraq remains a destabilizing influence to ... the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East.

"Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export programme to manipulate oil markets."

Significantly, the report concluded that the United States should immediately review its Iraq policy, including its military options.
http://tinyurl.com/397du

Why do you think there was such a desire to know vs. secrecy over Cheney's Energy Task Force and oil co. meetings?

Quote:
In July 2003, after two years of legal action through the Freedom of Information Act, Judicial Watch was finally able to obtain some documents from the task force. Those documents include maps of Iraqi and other mideast oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, two charts detailing various Iraqi oil and gas projects, and a March 2001 list of "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts."

In January 2003, The Wall Street Journal reported that representatives from Halliburton, Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron-Texaco Corp. and Conoco-Phillips, among others, had met with Vice President Cheney's staff to plan the post-war revival of Iraq's oil industry. However, both Cheney and the companies deny the meeting took place.
http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/about_hal/energytf.html

Cheney was carving up Iraq's oil fields before any of us ever heard of 9/11 or mobile bioweapons labs. The contracts are going to be ratified soon, giving the oil multinationals 75% of profits until costs are re-couped and 20% of profits thereafter. Oil is estimated at 95% of Iraq's GDP. Do the math.. 19% of the country's GDP will go to directly to Chevron, BP, etc. off the top.

Back to the first story:
Quote:
...during the 1990s, U.S. policy- makers were alarmed about oil deals potentially worth billions of dollars being signed between the Iraqi government and foreign competitors of the United States including France's Total and Russia's LukOil.

The New York Times reported the LukOil contracts alone could amount to more than 70 billion barrels of oil, more than half of Iraq's reserves. One oil executive said the volume of these deals was huge -- a "colossal amount."

As early as April 17, 1995, the Wall Street Journal reported that U.S. petroleum giants realized that "Iraq is the biggie" in terms of future oil production, that the U.S. oil companies were "worried about being left out" of Iraq's oil dealings due to the antagonism between Washington and Baghdad, and that they feared that "the companies that win the rights to develop Iraqi fields could be on the road to becoming the most powerful multinationals of the next century."

U.N. sanctions against Iraq, maintained at the insistence of the United States and Britain, prevented these deals from being consummated.

Saddam Hussein's removal in 2003 has left the deals in a state of limbo, but the Bush administration's insistence that only countries supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom are eligible for postwar reconstruction does not bode well for French and Russian concerns.
Next stop, Iran!
__________________
ladelfina is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 06:08 AM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

- I'm not sure how the CFR's report is relevant. The CFR is not a US government entity, just one of hundreds of think tanks.

- Some people continue to cite the low Iraqi oil production as evidence of US failure in Iraq. I'm glad somebody was planning before the war to get oil production up and running or the oil production situation wold certainly be worse.

I don't see the smoking gun.

I recall the amazing argument that the US got involved in Vietnam only to protect the interests of US rubber producers there, and I didn't "get" that argument either.

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 07:17 AM   #50
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 714
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

samclem, thanks for your thoughtful, and brave post, considering the overall forum bias.

Caroline, I thought your post was on the mark as well, and while I might not agree with the oil conspiracy / tin foil hat approach of some (not directed at you), I do agree our energy policy is a factor.

I don't see samclem's and Caroline's approaches as necessarily mutually exclusive.

Frankly, our society's relative freedom, our economic model, our open door for immigrants, and a successful focus on developing renewable energy could be America's major success factors for the early 21st century.


I remain fascinated by those who don't see the fascistic tendencies of radical Islam ... soon to be nuclear. But, of course ... we must wait for that shoe to drop before we believe, eh? ...


Most of all ... nice to see intelligent discourse sprinkled between the sophomoric Bush bashing, while brewer maintains his high standards ...
__________________
Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 07:58 AM   #51
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Goonie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North-Central Illinois
Posts: 3,198
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
Good by, so long, . . . . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOG52
I resign?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal
I quit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
"I just shot Cheney, and the cyanide will be effective any minute now..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goonie
Or maybe "Barbara just read me the biography of that Jim Jones fella down there in Jonestown, Guano....you know in South Merica. And I found it to be perty insprational.....I just shot Cheney, and the cyanide will be effective any minute now......
I was REALLY hoping for one of the above statements, so I was a bit disappointed!!!
__________________
Goonie is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 02:35 PM   #52
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 44
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by sooner
Samclem is right. The only reason we lost Vietnam was the half measures made.
The Vietnamese Communists fought for around 50 years against various occupiers, invaders and threats. (the French, US, Chinese and Cambodians ) and beat them all. They lost ~5M people which is comparable to Germany's losses in WWII but with 1/4 the population. The US dropped approximately 5x the tonnage of bombs than dropped on Germany in WWII. The country of Vietnam was by any measure completely devastated, but the North never capitulated.

The US in turn lost some 58K soldiers, with no civilian casualties but at huge monetary (~500B 1992 dollars) and political costs - still felt today.

Do you really think a few more divisions or sorties would have made a difference?

You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours, but even at those odds, you will lose and I will win. - Ho Chi Minh (He was only off by a factor of 10)
__________________
jefipius is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 02:45 PM   #53
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 174
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Uncle Sam seems to have a real talent for sticking his nose into someone else's business, and getting it punched. Then we have to go to war. "Come on down, all you brave young men / seems Uncle Sam has got himself in trouble again / way off yonder in Vietnam." I have seen this country at war, virtually continuously, for almost all of my life -- I'm goddam sick and tired of it!
__________________
jeff2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 03:03 PM   #54
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

jefipus--I think one of the big problems with Vietnam was the ineffective manner the militray was employed. I know that is an oversimplification but you get the idea. Granted we won every battle, but that's tactical (small picture), but did not take the neccessary actions to actually win the strategic war.

jeff--If the US has been at war 'virtually continuously' for your entire life, then you are very young. It's nice to see someone so young interested in retirement.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 03:19 PM   #55
Moderator Emeritus
laurence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 5,234
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

It mistifies me as to the thought we could have won Vietnam through a different use of the military. I know there are a lot of "war hawks" out there who say things like, "But we WON the Tet Offensive!" and think we could have kicked butt if only x y and z were different. The British Empire was the greatest power on Earth, yet a scrappy bunch of farmers kicked their butt out of the new world. If the people don't want you there, you are either going to lose or commit genocide to win. I'm glad we chose to lose.
__________________
laurence is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 03:20 PM   #56
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 174
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Too bad that the people who really know how to run wars are busy cutting hair, driving cabs, and posting on the Internet rather than filling the General Officer and Governmental Executive positions.
__________________
jeff2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 03:29 PM   #57
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff2006
the General Officer and Governmental Executive positions.
Um, last I checked, none of the people filling those roles seem to be able to win guerilla wars either.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 03:34 PM   #58
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 174
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Um, last I checked, none of the people filling those roles seem to be able to win guerilla wars either.
Agreed -- so maybe the answer is not to get into so damn many wars. It's one thing to defend yourself, and another thing to go into every bar in Chicago looking for a fight.
__________________
jeff2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 03:41 PM   #59
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff2006
Agreed -- so maybe the answer is not to get into so damn many wars. It's one thing to defend yourself, and another thing to go into every bar in Chicago looking for a fight.
Sounds good to me. Let's whack the crap out of military spending while we are at it to keep Presidents from giving in to "itchy trigger finger" syndrome.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow
Old 01-11-2007, 04:40 PM   #60
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: What should Bush say tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Let's whack the crap out of military spending while we are at it to keep Presidents from giving in to "itchy trigger finger" syndrome.
We already tried that with Clinton.



Nothing creates safety like weakness right?
__________________

__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MOVED: What should Bush say tomorrow Cut-Throat Life after FIRE 0 01-14-2007 08:13 AM
Prediction for tomorrow brewer12345 FIRE and Money 46 05-18-2006 09:06 PM
Bush essentially Calls U.S. Treas Bonds 'Worthless Cut-Throat Other topics 46 04-08-2005 08:28 AM
Today's Social Security News - From the Bush Camp. Cut-Throat Other topics 24 02-03-2005 09:25 AM
Bush floats a national sales tax dex FIRE and Money 22 08-17-2004 08:15 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:21 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.