What would you do in Iraq now?

**bssc** · 05-14-2007, 11:14 PM

All blame aside, what would you do in Iraq?

I can think of several proposals:

1) Divide Iraq into three areas or even countries. One for the Kurds, one for the Sunnis and one for the Shi'ites. The Turks won't be happy about the Kurds but then I would argue that would be the price for not letting the US attack through the north.

2) Bring in Arab peacekeepers. We have been pouring money into Egypt. They receive as much as Israel. This would be the chance to earn their keep.

3) Encourage segregation and build fences. Nasty yes, but I think that this is a recognition of what is already happening in Baghdad.

4) Negotiate. Buy off the people that we need too. Marginalize al-Qaeda by making their allies better off.

5) Drop our idological purity of needing a free market. Hey, if Stalinism is what it takes to lower the number of people shooting at US trooper / Peacekeepers.

Any other ideas?

lazygood4nothinbum · 05-14-2007, 11:24 PM

i would send them an apology and i would have george bush hand-deliver it.

brewer12345 · 05-15-2007, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum

i would send them an apology and i would have george bush hand-deliver it.

heheh, preferably hog-tied on a giant silver platter.

saluki9 · 05-15-2007, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bssc

2) Bring in Arab peacekeepers. We have been pouring money into Egypt. They receive as much as Israel. This would be the chance to earn their keep.

Arabs helping other Arabs? PLEASE! Some of the most cash and oil rich countries in the world have done nothing and donated nothing (other than money to pay suicide bombers) to the Palestinians. They have more than enough money to support their supposed "Muslim brother's and sisters" but they would rather they starve in order make Israel look bad.

Arab preacekeeper, that's a good one

dex · 05-15-2007, 07:10 AM

I think you need a part "B" to your question: i.e.
What will be the effect of your decision on:
1. Iraq
2. The nations surrounding Iraq - Jordan, Syria, Iran, Saudi, Kuaite, Egypt
3. Israel
4. USA - people and future actions
5. Europe

Without this part the answer is easy - get out - no ramifications.
With it people will need to give reasoned answers that will show their understanding or not of their decision.

What do you think?

greg · 05-15-2007, 08:32 AM

I suspect that most folks here think they are smarter than most of the elected officials in Washington DC

. Maybe we are; maybe we aren't.

I really like this thread. If we are smarter than most of our elected officials, we should be able to come up with a reasonable hypothetical solution without breaking down into partisan bickering and gridlock like, say, they do in Congress or in the Senate. It would be nice to seek and find a reasonable, moderate consensus.

My version:

I think we should pull out starting very soon. I think we could draw down half of our 90,000 troops before the end of the year. If things don't get too crazy over there, then begin the second phase of total withdrawal over the following year or two.

My thoughts and things I'd look for in phase one: I would hope and even expect that the Shiites will fully take over all aspects of gov't and the military. I also think that they will probably start going into Sunni and other areas to sort of clean house. It won't be pretty, But if any folks can quash all the terrorists it's going to be locals working with the national military and police. Not Americans. (I've heard that over 500,000 Iraqis have died over the past few years and that more than 2 million have fled.) My hope is that reasonable folks (not murderous thugs) will rise to the surface and to leadership. One can only hope this would be the outcome though, although having about 50k in troops sort of sitting in the background (rural areas/forts) might dissuade overly aggressive folks from too much mischief and mayhem--maybe. We have to trust their good judgment to bubble up. But we also need to stay detached from influencing daily decisions. A tuff place to find; a lot of hard work and discipline for us as we learn restraint and judicious behavior--much like trying to deal with an out-of-control teenager.

During that time, we should be busy encouraging neighboring countries to get involved in settling the Iraqi atmosphere. It's in their best interest to have a reasonable, settled country on their border. You help the family deal with the child. This can/should be good for all parties. If ANYONE brings ideas to settle problems in Iraq it should be local--either neighboring countries or citizens/leaders inside Iraq. That is/has been our largest problem: that we try to impose our values on them. (hint: like disruptive teens we should sort of guide them thru thought process toward more adult behaviors, be there to hold their hands if they want or need it.)

The big problem that I see needs correcting over the next year or two is that we went into Afganistan and Iraq with a big stick ready to impose our values on large groups of people. This whack-a-mole hasn't worked, obviously. We now need to back off a bit and redeploy as adults and hope the adults (as opposed to terrorists) get control in the Middle East.

grumpy · 05-15-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bssc

All blame aside, what would you do in Iraq?

Probably piss my pants at the first sign of combat

I hate to see our young men in harm's way and admire their fortitude

Grumpy

brewer12345 · 05-15-2007, 09:50 AM

Probably need to spend a couple of years mending fences with other countries in the region to get anything done. As that is going on, a slow, well-planned withdrawal of troops combined with a transition plan would probably be necessary not to cause a complete disaster on the ground. Then years of aid and advice to help the Iraqi state(s) get back on their feet.

cute fuzzy bunny · 05-15-2007, 09:57 AM

Problem is, most of these 'solutions' have been tried before, and failed miserably.

So far the only workable scenario was a strongman dictatorship that iron booted these people to keep them in line, stomped out any dissension and kept disruptive elements in jail or put them in the ground.

Otherwise they'll keep shooting and blowing each other up until they're all dead. Or someone else takes control that appeals to their religious sense to unite in pursuit of a greater enemy/threat.

Mwsinron · 05-15-2007, 10:30 AM

Take care of Iran next while we are there.

Next?

Oh only if Hillary is our CIC. Since she will kick ass and take names.

Brat · 05-15-2007, 12:54 PM

Going back to an earlier comment of mine, it is time to tell Iraq, and other interested parties, that it is their country to run or ruin and that Americans have no interest in staying where we aren't wanted.

That will scare the p*** out of their neighbors because of the inter-sectarian and tribal dynamics of the region. I think there will be a 'come to Muhammad' meeting of the minds because of their own survival instincts.

The problem with the current administration's definition of 'victory' is that they changed it. We won the war, we did what we promised to do. The peace is theirs to win. Once they are a peace with themselves recovery aid is appropriate, not before.

Nords · 05-15-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bssc

All blame aside, what would you do in Iraq?Any other ideas?

Who says we need to change the plan?

6. Continue training the Iraqi security forces. Eventually* declare them competent and ready to take care of their own security. Tell the Iraqi parliament that we're turning them over to the UN and the Dept of State for all future funding & assistance requests. Suggest that Iraq diplomats inform Iran to behave or they'll kick their nuclear assets.

Then we can start shipping the U.S. military home and leave behind those who usually stay-- the SF "instructors", the CIA, and the NGOs.

The whole process is analagous to kicking a teenager out of the house. They don't want to give up their comforts but eventually they come to relish the independence.

*Aye, there's the rub. Probably won't happen until after the new administration is sworn in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mwsinron

Oh only if Hillary is our CIC. Since she will kick ass and take names.

Wait, wasn't that Geena Davis? Not the scenes from "Earth Girls are Easy", but the TV show where she spent hours wrinkling her brow to look presidentially concerned.

Mwsinron · 05-15-2007, 01:28 PM

"Wait, wasn't that Geena Davis? Not the scenes from "Earth Girls are Easy", but the TV show where she spent hours wrinkling her brow to look presidentially concerned."

Is that show still on the air?

HFWR · 05-15-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mwsinron

Is that show still on the air?

Too bad politicians can't be cancelled for poor ratings... :P

lets-retire · 05-15-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFWR

Too bad politicians can't be cancelled for poor ratings... :P

I thought it was rather funny the other day. I saw an approval poll it showed Bush with his typical 30% or so and Congress with 37% approval ratings. So let's fire them all and hire new ones.

Mwsinron · 05-15-2007, 01:44 PM

Ya no one is really scoring to well in the polls. I think people are just getting pissed off in general.

Nords · 05-15-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lets-retire

So let's fire them all and hire new ones.

Ye gods, do you know how much time, money, & effort went into rounding up all these well-intentioned miscreants and putting them into a central federally-sponsored rehab facility where we can keep an eye on them?!? This correctional custody unit is so hopelessly screwed up that none of the 50 states even want to own it!

We worked hard to get these people out of circulation. If we practiced catch & release then they'd just go out and cause more trouble while being replaced with newbies who'd no doubt attract flocks of similar troublemakers. I don't think it's a coincidence that Dan Quayle is a Cerberus executive involved in the decision to buy Chrysler!

clifp · 05-15-2007, 04:51 PM

I don't think it's a coincidence that Dan Quayle is a Cerberus executive involved in the decision to buy Chrysler!

Darn I can't short Ceberus. On the other hand, considering Ceberus paid some much less than Daimeler-Benz maybe it isn't a bad deal.

Nords · 05-15-2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp

On the other hand, considering Ceberus paid some much less than Daimeler-Benz maybe it isn't a bad deal.

I didn't notice Buffett or Munger or Simpson circling this one as it went down.

But maybe Jain will figure out a way to sell insurance to the "New Chrysler Corp"...

05-14-2007, 11:14 PM	#1
bssc Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,667	What would you do in Iraq now? All blame aside, what would you do in Iraq? I can think of several proposals: 1) Divide Iraq into three areas or even countries. One for the Kurds, one for the Sunnis and one for the Shi'ites. The Turks won't be happy about the Kurds but then I would argue that would be the price for not letting the US attack through the north. 2) Bring in Arab peacekeepers. We have been pouring money into Egypt. They receive as much as Israel. This would be the chance to earn their keep. 3) Encourage segregation and build fences. Nasty yes, but I think that this is a recognition of what is already happening in Baghdad. 4) Negotiate. Buy off the people that we need too. Marginalize al-Qaeda by making their allies better off. 5) Drop our idological purity of needing a free market. Hey, if Stalinism is what it takes to lower the number of people shooting at US trooper / Peacekeepers. Any other ideas? __________________ Angels danced on the day that you were born.

05-14-2007, 11:24 PM	#2
lazygood4nothinbum Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,788	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? i would send them an apology and i would have george bush hand-deliver it. __________________ "off with their heads"~~dr. joseph-ignace guillotin "life should begin with age and its privileges and accumulations, and end with youth and its capacity to splendidly enjoy such advantages."~~mark twain - letter to edward kimmitt 1901

05-15-2007, 07:10 AM	#5
dex Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 3,056	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? I think you need a part "B" to your question: i.e. What will be the effect of your decision on: 1. Iraq 2. The nations surrounding Iraq - Jordan, Syria, Iran, Saudi, Kuaite, Egypt 3. Israel 4. USA - people and future actions 5. Europe Without this part the answer is easy - get out - no ramifications. With it people will need to give reasoned answers that will show their understanding or not of their decision. What do you think? __________________ Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral

05-15-2007, 08:32 AM	#6
greg Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,071	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? I suspect that most folks here think they are smarter than most of the elected officials in Washington DC . Maybe we are; maybe we aren't. I really like this thread. If we are smarter than most of our elected officials, we should be able to come up with a reasonable hypothetical solution without breaking down into partisan bickering and gridlock like, say, they do in Congress or in the Senate. It would be nice to seek and find a reasonable, moderate consensus. My version: I think we should pull out starting very soon. I think we could draw down half of our 90,000 troops before the end of the year. If things don't get too crazy over there, then begin the second phase of total withdrawal over the following year or two. My thoughts and things I'd look for in phase one: I would hope and even expect that the Shiites will fully take over all aspects of gov't and the military. I also think that they will probably start going into Sunni and other areas to sort of clean house. It won't be pretty, But if any folks can quash all the terrorists it's going to be locals working with the national military and police. Not Americans. (I've heard that over 500,000 Iraqis have died over the past few years and that more than 2 million have fled.) My hope is that reasonable folks (not murderous thugs) will rise to the surface and to leadership. One can only hope this would be the outcome though, although having about 50k in troops sort of sitting in the background (rural areas/forts) might dissuade overly aggressive folks from too much mischief and mayhem--maybe. We have to trust their good judgment to bubble up. But we also need to stay detached from influencing daily decisions. A tuff place to find; a lot of hard work and discipline for us as we learn restraint and judicious behavior--much like trying to deal with an out-of-control teenager. During that time, we should be busy encouraging neighboring countries to get involved in settling the Iraqi atmosphere. It's in their best interest to have a reasonable, settled country on their border. You help the family deal with the child. This can/should be good for all parties. If ANYONE brings ideas to settle problems in Iraq it should be local--either neighboring countries or citizens/leaders inside Iraq. That is/has been our largest problem: that we try to impose our values on them. (hint: like disruptive teens we should sort of guide them thru thought process toward more adult behaviors, be there to hold their hands if they want or need it.) The big problem that I see needs correcting over the next year or two is that we went into Afganistan and Iraq with a big stick ready to impose our values on large groups of people. This whack-a-mole hasn't worked, obviously. We now need to back off a bit and redeploy as adults and hope the adults (as opposed to terrorists) get control in the Middle East. __________________ Compounding: Never forget! Never not remember!

05-15-2007, 09:50 AM	#8
brewer12345 Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ... Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 9,249	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? Probably need to spend a couple of years mending fences with other countries in the region to get anything done. As that is going on, a slow, well-planned withdrawal of troops combined with a transition plan would probably be necessary not to cause a complete disaster on the ground. Then years of aid and advice to help the Iraqi state(s) get back on their feet. __________________ “When you realize that you are one of the rare few who observe moral principles in their relationships with others, there is a temptation to sink into amorality, not out of conviction or pleasure but simply to avoid further pain, because there is no greater suffering than being an angel in hell, whereas a devil feels at home wherever he goes.” – Martin Page, How I Became Stupid

05-15-2007, 09:57 AM	#9
cute fuzzy bunny Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ... Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Losing my whump Posts: 22,527	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? Problem is, most of these 'solutions' have been tried before, and failed miserably. So far the only workable scenario was a strongman dictatorship that iron booted these people to keep them in line, stomped out any dissension and kept disruptive elements in jail or put them in the ground. Otherwise they'll keep shooting and blowing each other up until they're all dead. Or someone else takes control that appeals to their religious sense to unite in pursuit of a greater enemy/threat. __________________ Many an optimist has become rich by buying out a pessimist

05-15-2007, 10:30 AM	#10
Mwsinron Full time employment: Posting here. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 718	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? Take care of Iran next while we are there. Next? Oh only if Hillary is our CIC. Since she will kick ass and take names.

05-15-2007, 12:54 PM	#11
Brat Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,834	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? Going back to an earlier comment of mine, it is time to tell Iraq, and other interested parties, that it is their country to run or ruin and that Americans have no interest in staying where we aren't wanted. That will scare the p*** out of their neighbors because of the inter-sectarian and tribal dynamics of the region. I think there will be a 'come to Muhammad' meeting of the minds because of their own survival instincts. The problem with the current administration's definition of 'victory' is that they changed it. We won the war, we did what we promised to do. The peace is theirs to win. Once they are a peace with themselves recovery aid is appropriate, not before. __________________ Duck bjorn.

05-15-2007, 01:28 PM	#13
Mwsinron Full time employment: Posting here. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 718	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? "Wait, wasn't that Geena Davis? Not the scenes from "Earth Girls are Easy", but the TV show where she spent hours wrinkling her brow to look presidentially concerned." Is that show still on the air?

05-15-2007, 01:44 PM	#16
Mwsinron Full time employment: Posting here. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 718	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? Ya no one is really scoring to well in the polls. I think people are just getting pissed off in general.

05-15-2007, 04:51 PM	#18
clifp Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,164	Re: What would you do in Iraq now? I don't think it's a coincidence that Dan Quayle is a Cerberus executive involved in the decision to buy Chrysler! Darn I can't short Ceberus. On the other hand, considering Ceberus paid some much less than Daimeler-Benz maybe it isn't a bad deal.