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What's a house painter worth?
Old 07-17-2008, 01:47 AM   #1
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What's a house painter worth?

I've read that most self-employed people have a difficult time establishing their hourly rate, or may even feel embarrassed to charge what they're truly worth. I'm beginning to appreciate the syndrome.

Spouse and I are home-improvement junkies, and one of the ways we keep up with the latest styles & tools is to help out our friends & neighbors. I'm not looking for a job but, around our neighborhood, we could turn it into one. That might be about to happen for one neighbor, and I'm trying to figure out how to set a fair rate or a good total price.

The neighbor is a single parent with an extremely sucky commute and long working hours. With little free time their family willingly admits that they choose to have no home-maintenance skills, and even a simple jammed disposal would result in a call to a plumber. I've managed to train the youngest son to unclog a sink drain and to fix a disposal but my services are still popular. We get along great and we enjoy each other's company, so to avoid awkwardness we've agreed that I'll be paid $25/hour. Barter is not an option. I do quick jobs for free and baked goods are always appreciated (along with karma points) but if I'm there an hour then it's $25.

I know that plumbers and electricians routinely charge $50-$75 for service calls so I figure that $25 is a fair handyman price. We also both know that nobody's time will be wasted because one of us is paying and the other one of us is on the clock-- a market arrangement that makes us both happy.

This week's query was (ruh-roh) peeling paint on the ceilings of both bathrooms, each about 12'x6'. They share a common wall (and a common attic) and neither one has been painted for over 18 years-- they're still on the builder's original single coat of latex paint. One bathroom is on an outside wall with a window and had only "minor" peeling. The other bathroom has only a vent fan, totally clogged and not even connected to the ductwork, and was peeling its ceiling in sheets.

After I fixed the fan, spouse and I agreed to patch, prime, & paint the ceilings & walls. (She's the décor & paint expert, I'm just labor.) We scraped off the old paint, cleaned & patched, and started priming. Most of a gallon of Kilz vanished before we got a good coat on the ceiling & walls. Even by my standards it was hard work-- today's temperature was in the high 80s but the ceilings were closer to 100 degrees and I sweated off two pounds in two hours.

We're skilled labor and we work neatly with the latest speed tools & techniques. But based on our progress, I estimate that the job will take a total of 8-10 man-hours of labor. $200-$250 of labor seemed like a lot for two bathrooms until I saw a family on HGTV happily pay $2000 (thousand!!) to have their livingroom & kitchen painted by contractors. OTOH a few minutes' Internet research turned up a range of salaries for Hawaii painters between $18-$23/hour. I've never paid someone to paint any of our property so I have no clue.

This job is too small to fret over the hourly rate, but I'm getting questions about painting the rest of the house (inside & out). That's a whole 'nother hairball that I'd rather steer to a painting contractor, but when I've done this for other low-priority tasks they've languished for months or even years. Yes, the exterior is also on its first coat of paint, and IMO if they wait much longer their Masonite will rot.

Is $25/hour a good rate for single-story exterior painting? The neighbor will take care of the association's permit and also pay for the paint & power washing. We'll just be applying the pigment at that hourly rate and spouse will get to try out some new tools she's been lusting after. Is there a better way to price this job?
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Old 07-17-2008, 04:19 AM   #2
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Over the last 10-15 years we've known a family - needed a crawlspace dug out, a miserable claustrophobic job, and Mom and 15 YO daughter signed on,worked with me, and did it. They needed to get paid the first night, figured they would not show again, but they came back. Kept at it and got the job done. A couple weeks later Mom said her husband was gettting out of prison, was a good worker, and could he work on getting the house we were re-doing up to snuff? I said yes. Dad showed up - pointed him at retiling the kitchen, which he did a fine job on, pointed him at smoothing a wall surface and painting - he did great. Claimed to have been a painting/wallpaper hanger. Over the next few weeks i got to watch that family work. hard. Rented them an apartment and had them do some painting for me, they started getting their painting contractor business together. Rented them several different places, they kept painting for me. Emergencies came up, loaned them $2-6k at different times. They kept painting in and out on our places - they would get a few thousand ahead of me before billing. They are pros - multiple serious airless sprayers, dozens of brushes in different stages of life, paintbooth for spraying cabinets and doors, hang paper for hotels, busy as they want to be. Sold them our old house when we moved next door. They charge me a bargain rate. They also get paid when and what they ask. A year ago i told them to charge me more - they went from $15 to $20/hour. I know they charge others more, but am not going to ask what they charge. Wouldn't be surprised if it was $30. They are painting an old single story shingle house for us right now - he mentioned it would probably be $2000, including all materials and scaling and painting the detached horrible peeling garage.
Plumbing company charges $80/hour - a very few of the plumbers are worth it.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:49 AM   #3
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call a couple-three contactors, get them to bid, then knock 25% or so off the low bid since you aren't or do not seem to be a licensed contractor. Then estimate the hours of your labor required and multiply by $25...see how the the two figures compare. Also, if you do this, you had better figure out who is responsible for what. If you are sued for some kind of accident, and she wins, there goes your FIRE... Also, who pays for medical if you or Mrs Nords is injured while this happens.

Just food for thought, fwiw.

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Old 07-17-2008, 09:12 AM   #4
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Nords, here in s. Wisconsin, the going rate for interior painting is about $25.00 per hour.

We received three bids last summer to have our 1890's 2800 sf Victorian painted.
Lots of scraping to do. Screens and storms were not included, but window frames
and and sills were. We had three gables with decorative trim included. All three bids were within 1k of each other. We ended up having it done for $10,400. It took the crew almost 3 weeks to finish. There were three men on the job, most of the time. The company warranted the job for one year.

Hope this helps : )
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:29 AM   #5
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Locally I've seen handymen charging $25-40 per hour. If they are employees of a company, they probably aren't making near that much. I assume you are familiar with the business concept of a "loaded rate" - that's what a professional charges per hour for services. Their salary is usually a fraction of the loaded rate. In my field, it is typically 1/3 of the loaded rate. Not sure what it is for painters - probably a lot better than 1/3.

Nords, I have to ask. Does your neighbor know she is getting her house painted by a multimillionaire? Or does she think you are some hippy surfer dude doing handyman work on the side for beer money? Just curious... you remind me of a landlord I had during college. Probably very wealthy but he did his own maintenance on his rentals even though he was a full time pharmacist.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:43 AM   #6
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For me, this is the scariest thread I've ever seen on this forum ... painting...someone *else's* house... for $25/hour!!?? What has this world come to!!??

I hate painting. I still do most of it in my own house, because sometimes it's more of a hassle to find a painter for a small job, and you're never sure if they will be good or not - even the previous good ones might have a sub come in that day...

Other times, it is because the painting is part of another remodel, and I might want to paint this area, put up this trim, then paint another area, etc. Painter wants to come in/out as fast as possible.

To each their own, but I can't imagine how desperate I would be before I'd use any of my free time to paint for hire for $25/hour.

I'm more than happy to do favors for people, they are usually returned, and if not, no big deal it was just a favor then. By the time I'm considering charging by the hour - that's work!

I dunno, I just dunno.


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Old 07-17-2008, 10:56 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
For me, this is the scariest thread I've ever seen on this forum ... painting...someone *else's* house... for $25/hour!!?? What has this world come to!!??
I think it is completely sensible. I wouldn't paint houses for this rate, but I might troubleshoot computers or do something else I'm competent at for this amount of money. In other words, help out a friend/neighbor with something that takes more than a few minutes. But charge a fee large enough to deter them from taking advantage of my free time.

My BIL and I "barter" informally all the time. He does handyman work on my house and helps move/lift things that DW can't help with. In exchange, I reinstall the operating system and software on his computer once a year. And install new hardware/software, and troubleshoot, etc. And act as an immigration attorney for him and his family. I wouldn't mind helping out others in a similar capacity, but I don't want to be spending hours on end helping out mere acquaintances.

The point isn't to earn money; rather to put a price on your time to encourage the one "hiring" you to make efficient use of your time. Simple aligning of interests as Nords says.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:58 AM   #8
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Thanks everyone, this is good info.

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Originally Posted by Rambler View Post
call a couple-three contactors, get them to bid, then knock 25% or so off the low bid since you aren't or do not seem to be a licensed contractor. Then estimate the hours of your labor required and multiply by $25...see how the the two figures compare. Also, if you do this, you had better figure out who is responsible for what. If you are sued for some kind of accident, and she wins, there goes your FIRE... Also, who pays for medical if you or Mrs Nords is injured while this happens.
Just food for thought, fwiw.
R
One of the reasons we get the call is because bids are darn near impossible to get around here. (So perhaps $25/hour for our availability is a bargain.) I wouldn't mind coordinating the bidding process for them but to attract a contractor it'd have to be a bigger job-- like painting the exterior.

Liability is an issue, which is another reason this isn't a business. But just try to get an electrician to come to the house to replace a broken GFCI receptacle, let alone install driveway lighting.

TRICARE handles our injuries for a $12 copay, no questions asked. I've been hurt far more by martial arts than by home improvement.

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Nords, I have to ask. Does your neighbor know she is getting her house painted by a multimillionaire? Or does she think you are some hippy surfer dude doing handyman work on the side for beer money? Just curious... you remind me of a landlord I had during college. Probably very wealthy but he did his own maintenance on his rentals even though he was a full time pharmacist.
No one in our neighborhood has any idea, although perhaps a few realtors & military retirees suspect. No one brings it up. Our house was the "bad neighbors" pit when we bought it and rehabbed it, so people see our results as vulture shopping and sweat equity.

Our low-key lifestyle makes it easy to believe that I'm doing the work to buy surf wax. The family knows I'm retired military but when I mentioned that spouse is retiring from the Reserves the reflex response was "Oh, but you're too young!" So I trotted out the canard about not waiting to be old enough for driving, alcohol, or sex either and that pretty much ended that line of conversation. Or maybe it was the look on the face of their daughter who's just graduated high school.

I keep telling the neighbors that I'm happy to help but they're the only ones comfortable with asking. Maybe single parents aren't shy about requesting assistance.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:11 AM   #9
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The question You should ask is "how much do YOU worth an hour?" I rarely do my own painting just because i believe i worth more than the pianter time. It all depends.

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Old 07-17-2008, 11:18 AM   #10
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The question You should ask is "how much do YOU worth an hour?" I rarely do my own painting just because i believe i worth more than the pianter time. It all depends.

enuff
I've mentioned it before, but I had a quote to do the interior of our house @ $25/hour and it spanned multiple weeks. I calculated my time to do it, including supplies (already own everything, just needed paint, but still, paint supplies are cheap), and it was more than worth it to do it myself. In converting the painter's quote to my actual time and cost, I was making $100/hour.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:23 AM   #11
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One man's occupation is another man's recreation...

If you are doing this because you enjoy it, and are helping the neighbors, then the $20-$30 range is probably good for everyone involved.

If you were doing this as a serious business, you would need to factor in workmen's comp, insurance, licensing, overhead, taxes, etc- which would drive the cost up for everyone. From your post, it seems like this is more about two serious DIY junkies having fun, - which is what you ER'd for- and improving neighborly relations- which seems to be in short supply these days.

Your true cost of providing this service is difficult to measure- but if you are happy doing the work, the neighbor is happy with paying you $25.00/Hr, and it improves both of your property values, then it is a great situation all around-not to mention the baked goods, which I suspect would dry up if you were charging prevailing wage.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:54 AM   #12
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$25/hr seems reasonable, if not downright cheap.

I would, however, carefully inspect their prep work. Without good prep work, your paint job won't last, and you'll forevermore be associated with it... Might be worth priming, even if it doesn't "need" it.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:09 PM   #13
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The question You should ask is "how much do YOU worth an hour?" I rarely do my own painting just because i believe i worth more than the pianter time. It all depends.

enuff
Help me out here- I have never been able to figure out this line of thought-

Let's say it takes 40 hours for the painting. Nords would charge me $25/hr for it. If I do the job myself, I save $1000 . (Real money that I didn't have to take out of my ER account and put into Nord's ER account.)

If I operate under the premise that my time is worth more than that, then I will pay Nords $1000 to have him paint the house for me while I eat Cheetos and watch the Playboy Channel. Did I actually earn that $1000 during the time he took to paint the house? NO-I wasn't earning any offsetting amount while Nords was painting for me. So how can my time be worth more than what Nords is charging me to paint?

I have heard a similar analogy that say Bill Gates can't afford to stop and pick up a $100 bill on the sidewalk. because he makes a so many millions per hour...

Although I well-compensated in my professional career, a lot of what I have today I made working in my "free" time- building, remodeling, and general sweat equity. My net worth is a couple of million, but I have always enjoyed doing a the concrete, framing, roofing, siding, electrical and drywall on my projects. If I had tried to put a fair-market dollar value on these tasks and contracted all of them out at those prices, my net worth today would be substantially less. Not spending the money for tasks I can do myself is the key for me. Every hour I am not paying someone else is, in essence, money I am paying myself. So for me, the net effect is more than double the hypothetical $25.00- I figure the boost in equity at a minimum of $25.00 (or I wouldn't be doing it in the first place) and add the $25 that I earned working somewhere else that I didn't have to spend on the project.

Anyone else use the same logic on pricing their sweat equity?
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:30 PM   #14
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Help me out here- I have never been able to figure out this line of thought-

Let's say it takes 40 hours for the painting. Nords would charge me $25/hr for it. If I do the job myself, I save $1000 . (Real money that I didn't have to take out of my ER account and put into Nord's ER account.)

If I operate under the premise that my time is worth more than that, then I will pay Nords $1000 to have him paint the house for me while I eat Cheetos and watch the Playboy Channel. Did I actually earn that $1000 during the time he took to paint the house? NO-I wasn't earning any offsetting amount while Nords was painting for me. So how can my time be worth more than what Nords is charging me to paint?

I have heard a similar analogy that say Bill Gates can't afford to stop and pick up a $100 bill on the sidewalk. because he makes a so many millions per hour...

Although I well-compensated in my professional career, a lot of what I have today I made working in my "free" time- building, remodeling, and general sweat equity. My net worth is a couple of million, but I have always enjoyed doing a the concrete, framing, roofing, siding, electrical and drywall on my projects. If I had tried to put a fair-market dollar value on these tasks and contracted all of them out at those prices, my net worth today would be substantially less. Not spending the money for tasks I can do myself is the key for me. Every hour I am not paying someone else is, in essence, money I am paying myself. So for me, the net effect is more than double the hypothetical $25.00- I figure the boost in equity at a minimum of $25.00 (or I wouldn't be doing it in the first place) and add the $25 that I earned working somewhere else that I didn't have to spend on the project.

Anyone else use the same logic on pricing their sweat equity?

the key word here is ENJOY. I do agree with u is that money that u don't pay out is money earned and keep and it also built up assets for you. however, if your profession (example plastic surgeon, hot shot lawyer) pay says $500-$1000/hr than u're wasting your time, UNLESS u enjoy painting. so if your job is like mine (says $30-$50/hr) then i say do the painting yourself.

In general, i try not to compete what some "illegal" immigrant do a living (just kidding) including cutting grass, working in sweat shops, waiting tables... (btw i waited tables and wash dished for many years too but i was a legal immigrant).
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:31 PM   #15
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Well, if I have a billable side project that I would have to put on hold or not agree to do, then I would be out $80/hour so I would value my time in that case. Otherwise, no, if I'm going to waste time anyway, then it's a wash.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:56 PM   #16
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$25/hr a fair pay? Interesting question. Thought about it a bit, and I still don't have a clue.

I always do interior painting, never pay anybody to do it, nor get quote, so I do not know. We have had the exterior painted a couple of times, but paid by job quotes, not hours. Ours is not a MacMansion, but fair size (2800sqft), and 2-story. The second story was the killer, else I would do it myself. Worse, since we have the swimming pool as close to the house as the law permits, there isn't room on the cooldeck to prop up a ladder. In fact, on the 1st paint job, the painter fell into the pool, with his paint bucket too. I had to empty the pool, but did not give the guy a hard time about it. The second time, it took them 2 days, 3 or 4 guys swarming over the house. I was not home to see them, but figured $2500 quoted for labor+material was well worth it (5yrs ago). I did not know how the 2nd contractor got around not falling into the pool though. I should have taken a day off work to see how they did it.

By the way, I do not mind painting (way better than working on cars), but do not love it. My neighbor on the other hand would do it for free. Well that's what he said, but you've got to be nice to him, inviting him over for barbecue and let him sample your cognac.
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:00 PM   #17
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Help me out here- I have never been able to figure out this line of thought-

Let's say it takes 40 hours for the painting. Nords would charge me $25/hr for it. If I do the job myself, I save $1000 . (Real money that I didn't have to take out of my ER account and put into Nord's ER account.)
Nords can probably do the paint job in 40 hours. An inexperienced homeowner w/o skills in handyman-type tasks might spend 60-80 hours to do the same job. And they would have to buy the tools. As stated in Nords OP, the homeowner is a very busy single parent with a hectic schedule - long commute, long work day, etc. $1000 might represent only a few days or a week of their regular 9-5 paycheck, so they would rather enjoy their free time during the evening and on weekends instead of spending every free waking moment painting. Seems like a utility-maximizing exercise to me. After all. aren't we all a bunch of rational economic actors constantly attempting to maximize our utility? I know I am!

The same logic applies to changing your oil, fixing your car, mowing your grass, etc. Inadequate tools and low productivity levels have made outsourcing these tasks to specialized labor "efficient" for many consumers.
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:13 PM   #18
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Anyone want to speculate on whether Warren Buffet would "take the time" to pick up the hypothetical hundred dollar bill?
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:15 PM   #19
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Not spending the money for tasks I can do myself is the key for me. Every hour I am not paying someone else is, in essence, money I am paying myself. So for me, the net effect is more than double the hypothetical $25.00- I figure the boost in equity at a minimum of $25.00 (or I wouldn't be doing it in the first place) and add the $25 that I earned working somewhere else that I didn't have to spend on the project.

Anyone else use the same logic on pricing their sweat equity?
My logic is that if it is something I enjoy or at least don't mind doing (painting doesn't qualify for me), AND it's not an emergency AND I'm in the mood to get it done in the near future, I'll do it. Also, if it doesn't qualify above but I get p*ssed off at someone trying to rip me off, I'll do it myself. Otherwise I hire it out. I didn't work hard just to retire early, I also worked for FI. That gives me the freedom to choose.

That being said, I suspect $25/hr is a reasonably cheap price. Is that per man hour? Or for the team? Even doing yard work in Northern VA they charge more than that, and yard work is easy and fun compared to painting.

Harley
That being said,
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:23 PM   #20
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My time is DEFINITELY worth more than $25 an hour. Anyone want to come paint my house
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