What's engine starter spray/should we get some?

[pb4uski]

Seriously, a 1/4 cup? I hope you mean a few drops.

Ok, ok - 1/4 cup is overstated - I wasn't quite sure how to describe it - but I do put in much more than a few drops. Probably more like 3/4 of those little coffee scoops - so I guess 1 to 2 tablespoons +/-. I actually just drizzle some in from the small gas can - rarely measure it but usually just wing it.

 

[youbet]

Ok, ok - 1/4 cup is overstated - I wasn't quite sure how to describe it - but I do put in much more than a few drops. Probably more like 3/4 of those little coffee scoops - so I guess 1 to 2 tablespoons +/-. I actually just drizzle some in from the small gas can - rarely measure it but usually just wing it.

I think the others thought you were putting 1/4 cup of starter fluid directly into the cylinder. It sounds like you're putting gasoline directly into the cylinder. That's different.......

1 to 2 tablespoons of gasoline still sounds like a lot though...... Liquid gasoline will seep past the piston rings so I suppose the surplus is just flowing down to the crank shaft area. You'd probably get the same or better results with just a few drops. I use an eye dropper which I'd estimate holds 1/2 t.

 

[travelover]

I think the others thought you were putting 1/4 cup of starter fluid directly into the cylinder. It sounds like you're putting gasoline directly into the cylinder. That's different.......

If you put too much gas directly into the cylinder, it won't start. Remember the term "flooded" engine from when you were a kid? Not enough oxygen in the cylinder to explode all that gas and spark plug gap is filled with wet gasoline.

 

[calmloki]

I think the others thought you were putting 1/4 cup of starter fluid directly into the cylinder. It sounds like you're putting gasoline directly into the throat of the carburetor. That's different.......

FTFY

 

[youbet]

Thanks, but no. Pull a plug, put the fuel directly into the cylinder, not the carb throat.

EDIT: On second thought, let me clarify. I'm talking about small, single cylinder lawn appliances. OP's lawn tractor might be more like working on a car engine. Then, yeah, try the carb throat.

 

[youbet]

If you put too much gas directly into the cylinder, it won't start. Remember the term "flooded" engine from when you were a kid? Not enough oxygen in the cylinder to explode all that gas and spark plug gap is filled with wet gasoline.

That's true. You read my post correctly. I use much less than the 1/4 cup or 1 - 2 T that pb4uski mentioned. But with single cylinder 2-stroke engines, complete with their loose fitting rings, a few pulls of the starting cord usually clears up clylinder flooding (as opposed to carburator flooding) and she starts up, so flooding isn't a major issue.

 

[pb4uski]

Sorry I wasn't clear. When an engine won't start if I don't have any starting fluid handy I pull the plug(s), drizzle some gasoline into the cyllinder, put the plug(s) back, and then start. That procedure frequently, but not always, does the trick.

Or if it runs for just a few seconds then I know that the problem is not lack of fire, but is lack of fuel. Have done this with lawn mowers, lawn tractors, snowmobiles, inboard and outboard marine engines, etc. over the years and haven blown myself or any equipment up yet.

 

[Amethyst]

Thanks for the tips, discussion, and funnies. In this case, the mechanic used the spray because the tractor would not come out of our garage to be worked on. I agree that stale gas was probably implicated. I also agree that "quick fixes" aren't fixes - like thinking WD40 has actually "fixed" a squeaky door hinge. If tractor refuses to start in future, I will ask husband to run through the troubleshooting steps you all have suggested...or if it's on a weekend, we'll run through them together.

Thanks again,

Amethyst

 

[veremchuka]

any gas being stored for say 45 days or longer should have Stabil added to it. all my stored gas has Stabil in it except in summer when i use the gas fast enough to not need Stabil.

NO equipment should EVER be stored at the end of the season until you drain the gas from the tank (buy a siphon at auto parts store) and run the engine dry AND the gas used at the end of the season should have Stabil in it so it runs thru the carb because you can't get every drop out of the system.

failure to so this may (almost assuredly) cause you a lot of aggravation and money! gas today is CRAP and goes bad very fast.

 

[ERD50]

any gas being stored for say 45 days or longer should have Stabil added to it. all my stored gas has Stabil in it except in summer when i use the gas fast enough to not need Stabil.

NO equipment should EVER be stored at the end of the season until you drain the gas from the tank (buy a siphon at auto parts store) and run the engine dry AND the gas used at the end of the season should have Stabil in it so it runs thru the carb because you can't get every drop out of the system.

failure to so this may (almost assuredly) cause you a lot of aggravation and money! gas today is CRAP and goes bad very fast.

This is not my experience. I've never used any product in the gas for my mowers. For at least 20 years, all I've ever done with my garden tractor is to start it up 2-3 times during the winter. Let it run for ten minutes to charge up the battery (which is best to do anyhow). Always starts, runs just fine. And the same gas is in the tank all winter ( ~ 5 months). Never had to perform any engine maintenance on either mower, and got 12 years on the first before I replaced it for non-engine reasons.

Have you ever tried not using it? I guess it can't hurt, but I don't find it necessary at all. Saves me money and time and the pain of siphoning.

-ERD50

 

[veremchuka]

erd50 ll i can say is your experience is not the experience of countless stories i have seen on the tv news, heard of on the radio and heard of directly. we have 10% ethanol in our gas and it is $h!t.

 

[ERD50]

erd50 ll i can say is your experience is not the experience of countless stories i have seen on the tv news, heard of on the radio and heard of directly. we have 10% ethanol in our gas and it is $h!t.

I can't speak for others, I can only convey my own experience. We also have 10% ethanol. Never used a gas stabilizer product, never had a problem using my procedure of a few starts over the winter. Did it just the other day, started up fine. Probably won't do again until mid-April, which is lawn mowing season here.

I see you didn't answer my question:

Have you ever tried not using it?

So if you have tried some years not using it, and you had problems, and no problems in years you used it, then of course it seems like you should use it. But if you've never not used it (the double negative is intentional), you really can't say if it helps or not.

So many times, I also see countless stories of this or that, and they simply are not true - so that carries little weight for me. Between the news media and the internet, stories get repeated as if they are fact, but few 'journalists' today actually seem to do any fact checking.

Along those lines, I'm still looking for an actual study that shows that the commonly sold driveway sealers extend the life of a blacktop driveway. You will find tens of thousands of stories on-line about how you should use it for this, and they insist it works, but I had trouble finding any data. I did find one rather poorly controlled study that indicated no difference after 15 years. And personally, I prefer the softer weathered gray to the stark black of a freshly sealed drive.

-ERD50

 

[veremchuka]

no i never did not use Stabil and i will never forgo using it in gas i'm storing. as i said the only time i don't use Stabil is in the mowing season when i go thru gas fast enough to not worry about it sitting long enough to cause problems, a 5 gallon can lasts a month but in september i'm adding Stabil to the gas as i don't mow every week and i want treated gas running thru the carb so when i am ready to drain the system i don't have to add Stabil then run it for 20 minutes.

i'm glad you have not had any problems. i know someone that runs a small equipment business and the crap gas has brought him a LOT of business. he's a reliable source of info. i've seen many reports on the local tv news of problems in small engines like mowers, chain saws, weed wackers, snow blowers and motorcycles. seems anything with a carb is going to have issues if you let this crap gas sit in it for several months untreated.

all these stories on tv and radio in addition to my friend who runs a small equipment shop bears out that there are serious risks to not using Stabil. i keep it in my truck all the time, i mix it for long term storage not short term storage but i drive it only once a month for ~ 20 miles. it is not driven in winter and has been sitting since 11/14, i don't see starting it until at least a month from now.

i think it is cheap insurance because the damage from the gas can be expensive and inconvenient.

 

[HFWR]

Late to this thread... Recently started my mower after a 2-3 year "rest". Ran it until it died for lack of fuel before storing, but still needed some carb cleaner spray to get it to start/run.

 

[travelover]

Late to this thread... Recently started my mower after a 2-3 year "rest". Ran it until it died for lack of fuel before storing, but still needed some carb cleaner spray to get it to start/run.

I bet your grass is long.

 

[wallygator69]

Late to this thread... Recently started my mower after a 2-3 year "rest". Ran it until it died for lack of fuel before storing, but still needed some carb cleaner spray to get it to start/run.

Late too but recently had an issue with lawn mower and bad gas gumming up the carb. Engine was surging. I could see the throttle moving back and forth and the engine reving up and down almost stalling. Had carb rebuilt cleaned for $50.00. Dumped bad gas got new. 2 months later it started again and I used stabil. Then I found SEAFOAM.

Incredible stuff. Dumped in carb and stalled engine. let sit 5 minutes and start. repeated several times and the engine purrs.

Google seafoam and small engines and you tube has videos as well.

I wish I knew about this stuff when I had cars with carbs.

You can get it at Walmart.

See ya

Wally

 

[Keim]

You can also use SEAFOAM on cars with injectors, Wally.

I regularly run it in my 2004 CRV, 93 f150 and 1976 Monte Carlo.

Sure did smoke when I treated the Carb in the '76.

 

[HFWR]

I bet your grass is long.

I have [-]illegal aliens[/-] a lawn service. Besides, I'm good at disposing of excess grass...

 

[ERD50]

i'm glad you have not had any problems. i know someone that runs a small equipment business and the crap gas has brought him a LOT of business. he's a reliable source of info.

And I'd take the word of someone like that over all the 'journalists' out there.

But, to overly-belabor this point beyond what I already have (but now I'm curious about something, so hang in there...), I would still wonder if the people with problems kept the tank mostly full, and started it several times over the off season? Or were they the ones that left an almost empty tank all winter - I think that would be more likely to cause problems.

I don't think I mentioned that I keep the tank pretty full over the winter - I think this may be important. For one, less problem with condensation. And now, to the point that I was curious about...

People keep talking about build of of gunk. But with a full tank, I don't really experience any significant evaporation (I never really measured it, just going be what I recall). Now, I could see if you left a quart of gas evaporate down to a 1/4 cup - that 1/4 cup could be pretty sludgy and varnish-y. But with 2 gallons in the tank, let's say even 10% evaporates (I doubt it is anywhere near that), that leaves gas that is only slightly concentrated. It can't be all that much different, but losing the most volatile components can make for harder starting (hence the need for starter fluid sometimes). And with a full tank, there isn't much head space to evaporate in to.

So anyhow, I think a full tank and a few starts is why I haven't seen any problems. If you can't do that, or don't trust it I'm sure Stabil will do the trick, I just think there are options - plus the starting and running a while gets the oil distributed around and the battery charged.

-ERD50

 

[pb4uski]

Over the last couple years we have had loads of problems around here with the 10% ethanol fuel and snowmobile and marine engines (both 2 cycle and 4 cycle). I've had to have carbs rebuilt on my Mercruiser and on my snowmobile. It got so bad that last year I went a bit out of my way to buy no ethanol gas - but it is now no longer available anywhere.

Recently, I've been using a fuel stabilizer recommended by my mechanic. It's not Stabil - it is a aqua blue color - I'l post the name of it later - but he swears by it.

 

[veremchuka]

And I'd take the word of someone like that over all the 'journalists' out there.

But, to overly-belabor this point beyond what I already have (but now I'm curious about something, so hang in there...), I would still wonder if the people with problems kept the tank mostly full, and started it several times over the off season? Or were they the ones that left an almost empty tank all winter - I think that would be more likely to cause problems.

I don't think I mentioned that I keep the tank pretty full over the winter - I think this may be important. For one, less problem with condensation. And now, to the point that I was curious about...

People keep talking about build of of gunk. But with a full tank, I don't really experience any significant evaporation (I never really measured it, just going be what I recall). Now, I could see if you left a quart of gas evaporate down to a 1/4 cup - that 1/4 cup could be pretty sludgy and varnish-y. But with 2 gallons in the tank, let's say even 10% evaporates (I doubt it is anywhere near that), that leaves gas that is only slightly concentrated. It can't be all that much different, but losing the most volatile components can make for harder starting (hence the need for starter fluid sometimes). And with a full tank, there isn't much head space to evaporate in to.

So anyhow, I think a full tank and a few starts is why I haven't seen any problems. If you can't do that, or don't trust it I'm sure Stabil will do the trick, I just think there are options - plus the starting and running a while gets the oil distributed around and the battery charged.

-ERD50

i'm not sure if having a full tank would help to prevent the problem. you make a good point about evaporation but i question whether gas evaporates from a tank? seems unlikely as that'd be a hazard due to fumes possibly being ignited. also epa would frown on it that is why gas pumps have the boot to prevent vapors escaping during fueling a car. gas caps on small equipment are vented tho, there's a small hole in the cap so maybe a tiny amount of vapor can escape.

the problem with the gas is the compounds in it break down into a varnish like substance. this clogs the ting passages in a carb and small equipment have small carbs but this can happen in a car too. iirc no cars made after 1986 have carbs but for older cars this is a problem.

i had sea foam and it is supposed to be fantastic stuff. i used it but not as a carb cleaner just an additive.

 

[ERD50]

the problem with the gas is the compounds in it break down into a varnish like substance.

OK, maybe that's what I'm missing (assuming it works that way, I dunno).

If the varnish/gummy stuff just 'forms' even w/o evaporation (like stuff settles out on the bottom of a can of paint or varnish), I suppose that could clog things up. For me at least, I guess the occasional start flushes it out before it can build up and cause problems? I'll probably throw some kind of fuel additive in this spring, just as a precaution against any build up that may have occurred.

But wouldn't I see some of this build up on the bottom of the tank? It's milky-white plastic, and it's spic-and-span clean - no build up of any kind at all. It looks factory-fresh, not even a hint of a even a stain on the inside. How can that be? My curiosity is really getting to me on this one - is it a fable (despite what seems like good evidence), have I been lucky, what?


-ERD50

 

[bruce1]

Started my mower yesterday for the first time since October. Started quick but the engine surged for five minutes then settled. Had stabil in a full tank.

 

[veremchuka]

.....If the varnish/gummy stuff just 'forms' even w/o evaporation (like stuff settles out on the bottom of a can of paint or varnish), I suppose that could clog things up. For me at least, I guess the occasional start flushes it out before it can build up and cause problems? I'll probably throw some kind of fuel additive in this spring, just as a precaution against any build up that may have occurred.

But wouldn't I see some of this build up on the bottom of the tank? It's milky-white plastic, and it's spic-and-span clean - no build up of any kind at all. It looks factory-fresh, not even a hint of a even a stain on the inside. How can that be? My curiosity is really getting to me on this one - is it a fable (despite what seems like good evidence), have I been lucky, what?


-ERD50

i am not a chemist so what i'm going to say is just my logical analytical option.

if the problem is created by compounds in the gas that break down/change chemically and create a substance that clogs lines then i don't see how starting your engine periodically protects you because the gas is getting older as time passes. Stabil is designed to prevent this chemical change keeping the gas fresh.

adding additive in the spring is not going to solve anything assuming the gas is breaking down over the time period that it is sitting without any Stabil in it. you need to prevent the problem from happening not try to cure it after the fact. this is why adding Stabil to the gas when you buy it and then store it for x months is the right way to approach this. if you're going to use the gas in say 2 months i'm sure you are ok but beyond 60 days Stabil is cheap insurance against expensive repairs. an oz of prevention....

who's to say anything settles out? maybe the varnish problem is not visible to the naked eye but is a problem when trying to run that gas thru a carb.

maybe you have been lucky, based upon what i hear you are playing russian roulette. since this problem surfaced several years ago here (it was big news on tv) i have used Stabil for gas that is stored whether in my gas cans, small equipment like a snow blower over the winter with infrequent use or in the gas tank of my truck that i drive once a month then park all winter until spring. talk to people that own antique cars and i'll bet you that every single one of them uses a gas stabilizer.

like i said i'm not an expert but i wanted to warn people here in view of the op post that gas is not what it used to be and i am certain that ethanol is the problem.

 

[ERD50]

i am not a chemist so what i'm going to say is just my logical analytical option.

if the problem is created by compounds in the gas that break down/change chemically and create a substance that clogs lines then i don't see how starting your engine periodically protects you because the gas is getting older as time passes. Stabil is designed to prevent this chemical change keeping the gas fresh.

Could be, I'm no chemist either. My thought was that any build up that settled into or clung to the small parts might be flushed out by the larger flow of gas.

adding additive in the spring is not going to solve anything assuming the gas is breaking down over the time period that it is sitting without any Stabil in it.

I was thinking of a cleaning type additive in the Spring, not a stabilizer type. My thought here was, in case there is some build up, maybe not enough to keep from starting and running well, but a build up that might cause trouble over time, that some cleaner would take care of it.

you need to prevent the problem from happening not try to cure it after the fact.

I'm just not convinced that there is a problem that needs curing.

who's to say anything settles out? maybe the varnish problem is not visible to the naked eye but is a problem when trying to run that gas thru a carb.

Well, there simply isn't anything in the tank, visible or not - I looked at an old tank that had a tiny, tiny leak near the top (only leaked when completely full - being a pack rat, I kept in case the new one developed a major leak, I could use this until I got a replacement), it was in service for 6 years, and I just scraped at it - there is no build up in there, no powder, no residue of any sort.

So, if this chemical change is homogeneous, and stays in solution and doesn't settle out, then when I get my engine started and that gas is used up the first few mowings, the problem is gone too, right? Nothing is left behind. This is why I'm not concerned. If I couldn't get it started, I'd be concerned, but that hasn't been a problem for me over the 20 years or more that I've been doing this.

maybe you have been lucky, based upon what i hear you are playing russian roulette.

Perhaps, but I haven't seen any evidence of any bullets. I'm actually a real pro-preventative maintenance guy. I do far more than most people do, hoping to avoid the bullets. But I agree with Nords take on from his military experiences - pick and chose and do it as appropriate.

Here's an example of that - my manual says change the fuel filter every year. Hmmm, I went to the store and they were not in stock, so I took the filter out, gave it a good look and blew backwards through it, and nothing was in there. I figured - what's the worst that could happen? If it clogs, it stops, I clean it out and I'm good to go. Since then I've never replaced the fuel filter either, and I've never had a problem. I pump filtered gas into a plastic can (no rust), into a plastic tank. What's to clog the filter? It's CYA for the mfg to cover everyone, including people with dirty gas cans, but if you understand what you're doing you can adjust to your circumstances.

talk to people that own antique cars and i'll bet you that every single one of them uses a gas stabilizer.

As I said earlier, lots of people do lots of things w/o having any evidence that what they are doing helps or not. They do it "just in case". Or maybe these people are not starting their vehicles a few times in the off season as I do? It might make perfect sense in that case. All I'm saying is I don't think it is for ceratin that you have to do it, I think my process is an alternative. Them doing it has no bearing on whether it is appropriate for my situation whatsoever.

We always heard of people who swore by changing their oil every 3,000 miles. There is lots of evidence these days that that was wasteful and didn't help one bit over a less intense schedule.

like i said i'm not an expert but i wanted to warn people here in view of the op post that gas is not what it used to be and i am certain that ethanol is the problem.

You're certain that ethanol is the problem, but you're not a chemist?

IIRC, the problem with ethanol is that it absorbs moisture and that it can attack some plastics. But most engines accommodate that now. I'm not aware that ethanol causes any gummy varnish problems, it might actually help clean them. I think that might be one of the problems in adding ethanol to a system that had not used it in a long time, the ethanol loosens the build up, and that clogs things, but I'd need to look that up. Brazil is using a minimum 20% ethanol blend, and has cars that run 100% ethanol. If ethanol is so bad, how do these cars run at all?

BTW, I'm not typing all this to be argumentative - I'm looking to have my ideas challenged and I'll change if I see evidence that there is a problem with the method for me, but I haven't seen that, just claims that 'everybody does it' and unfounded theories about how it might be causing problems (that I've never experienced).

If you'd like to continue, any chance you could add capitals to your sentences? It is proven to make them easier to read, the eye looks for those visual clues. Thanks.

-ERD50