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Old 11-23-2010, 06:24 PM   #21
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We are not limited to the Earths resources. There are unlimited resources available. All we have to do is go get them.
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:43 PM   #22
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Sorry OP, your thread has been hijacked...
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:54 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by freedom42 View Post
Of course everyone is free to do as they wish, I just find it shocking that so few are actually taking positive financial steps so they don't have to work until they're dead.
My two younger brothers and their wives believe in enjoying things now, as they are still young. They said that if their future financial situation should deteriorate due to sickness or a job loss, they would move out to a trailer with no regrets. They said that if that happened, they would be able to say that they "had been there, done that". So, who am I to say that they are imprudent with their "Carpe Diem" philosophy?
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:53 PM   #24
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Agree with the OP generally. But driving a clunker won't guarantee ER. I guess if there weren't the spendthrifts around the rest of us wouldn't be as well off. As long as we don't have to pay for their retirement. Oh oh, maybe we will?
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:09 PM   #25
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In general, this is false. Here is a counterexample: begin with 5 (the finite beginning quantity), subtract 1 3 times (3 is the finite number of subtractions), then the remainder is 2, not 0, so the beginning quantity is not exhausted.
I'm not sure if you're trying to be amusing, but: in the statement that "after a finite number of subtractions, a finite beginning quantity will be exhausted", the expression "a finite number" does not mean "any finite number that anyone can name". It means "there is some value which you will eventually hit which will meet this condition".

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In your story about the swimming pool, as the amount you remove each time decreases, the length of time it takes to remove all the water increases without limit (ignoring the molecular nature of water). So unless you allow an infinite time, if the amount removed each time is sufficiently small, there will be some water remaining at the end of the allotted finite time.
Well, firstly, as you've stated this, this is essentially Zeno's paradox, and thanks to modern (post 16th-Century) mathematics, we know that ain't so paradoxal.

But more importantly, in the analogy, the amount removed each time is not decreasing. It's a 1/6 ounce teaspoon every time. It will take a lot of teaspoons, but there will come a point where you will run out of water.

(And all this, on a board where half the topics are dedicated to SWR...)
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:15 PM   #26
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We are not limited to the Earths resources. There are unlimited resources available. All we have to do is go get them.
I presume you're talking about getting minerals, etc from other planets.

For that to be possible, you have to be able to demonstrate that we have, or will have at a given specific point, the resources available to embark on a project which is capable of putting enough machinery and/or people into space and bringing those resources back to earth. Given our inability to provide clean drinking water for a billion people, I would suggest that that day is some way off, and when it approaches, I'm not sure if anyone's going to be prepared to pay the taxes which will be required to get the project off the ground, even if the requisite quantities of energy and knowhow were actually available.

We've all been watching scifi movies for too long. There's a reason why we haven't been back to the moon for nearly 40 years, and it's not just because the TV viewing public got bored.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:26 PM   #27
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For that to be possible, you have to be able to demonstrate that we have, or will have at a given specific point, the resources available to embark on a project which is capable of putting enough machinery and/or people into space and bringing those resources back to earth. Given our inability to provide clean drinking water for a billion people, I would suggest that that day is some way off, and when it approaches, I'm not sure if anyone's going to be prepared to pay the taxes which will be required to get the project off the ground, even if the requisite quantities of energy and knowhow were actually available.
Nah, we're just going to wait until the price of bottle water gets to $10,000/gallon. Then Richard Branson will start flying in Virgin Moon Water for just $8K/gallon...
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:11 AM   #28
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I presume you're talking about getting minerals, etc from other planets.

For that to be possible, you have to be able to demonstrate that we have, or will have at a given specific point, the resources available to embark on a project which is capable of putting enough machinery and/or people into space and bringing those resources back to earth. Given our inability to provide clean drinking water for a billion people, I would suggest that that day is some way off, and when it approaches, I'm not sure if anyone's going to be prepared to pay the taxes which will be required to get the project off the ground, even if the requisite quantities of energy and knowhow were actually available.

We've all been watching scifi movies for too long. There's a reason why we haven't been back to the moon for nearly 40 years, and it's not just because the TV viewing public got bored.
You are correct. The investment needs to be made or those resourses will forever be out of reach. I don't think we will bring the resourses here to Earth so much as we will live where the resourses are. I will not accept the augument that we have to fix everything on earth before we do it though.
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:04 AM   #29
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...they would move out to a trailer with no regrets.
DW/me lived in a mobile home (two separate times, one leased, one owned) in our early days together due having few $$$.

Believe me, for us, who have "been there", there is no way that we would want to go back to that way of living.

IMHO, it's easy to say that is what they might do if things don't turn out, but I doubt if they would be satisfied and not have any regrets for the current lifestyle that helped them move into their later year's "final abode".

Just my $.02, since I've been there...

PS: Depending on the area of the country, find out what "trailer living" actually costs (between buying, land/park rental, enterance fees, taxes & insurance, etc.) For us, the cost of moving into our first "stick built" home was the same as the total expenses for our second (owned) mobile home. The reason we did not immediately move into a regular home was at the time (just being discharged, low paying job, wife could not work - had to take care of our disabled child) it took us four years to get a downpayment scraped together for a "real" house. I don't think you will find that a trailer/mobile home is actually "cheap living".
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Old 11-25-2010, 05:21 PM   #30
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500,000,000 scoops with a teaspoon will empty an olympic size swimming pool.
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Old 11-25-2010, 05:32 PM   #31
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500,000,000 scoops with a teaspoon will empty an olympic size swimming pool.
But who's counting?
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Old 11-25-2010, 05:58 PM   #32
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DW/me lived in a mobile home (two separate times, one leased, one owned) in our early days together due having few $$$.

Believe me, for us, who have "been there", there is no way that we would want to go back to that way of living.

IMHO, it's easy to say that is what they might do if things don't turn out, but I doubt if they would be satisfied and not have any regrets for the current lifestyle that helped them move into their later year's "final abode".

Just my $.02, since I've been there...

...I don't think you will find that a trailer/mobile home is actually "cheap living".
It's still their choice, and I cannot keep bringing this up, lest they think I am wishing them ill.

Though we do not share our net worth, it is obvious that I have more than my brothers, due both to my frugal habit and the fact that I am older and have been working longer. Even so, I have in mind a back up plan that I often talk about here, that I discovered on the Web. It's because a pessimist like myself can never be sure. Have you seen a concurrent thread about what Sharpe recently said?
It was scary because despite all the backward-looking data Sharpe said he can accumulate as an academic, the future is uncertain, and advisors still have to share this unfortunate news with clients... The more he knows, Sharpe said, the more he realizes he doesn’t know.

Here's my backup plan. Better than a house in a trailer park: a small motor home in the New Mexico mountains, requiring only a state annual permit of $225/year, plus $4/day for electric hookup, and another $4/day for sewer.

Hmm... Clean air, close to nature, healthy lifestyle, traveling light... What's not to like? Hey, I may try this out even if I do not become broke.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:13 PM   #33
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What if humanity as a whole decided to live within our means?

In the context of "society" what does "live within our means" mean? Is it sort of like the notion that if dinosaurs had consumed vegatation and each other more daintily and in smaller quantities, they'd be here today?
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:21 PM   #34
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the future is uncertain, and advisors still have to share this unfortunate news with clients... The more he knows, Sharpe said, the more he realizes he doesn’t know.

.
I love the way Sharpe drives home this concept, although it appears few really listen and fewer understand.

Even on a forum such as this, where most seem well schooled in economics, there seem to be many who still think that tweaks and alterations to their spending and investment plans can materially affect the survival of their portfolio if things go against them.

In fact, we can all run our FIRE finances prudently following the historically based principals we've studied and learned. But if future events go against us, any of us may mind up pushing a cart down a muddy road.

Live prudently but well. Enjoy life. Tomorrow may or may not be what you expect and plan for.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:29 PM   #35
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It would be alot easier to explain 'living beyound their means'. If you make a decent buck and you get a surprise bill for 1 G and you have to use credit to pay it, your living beyond your means.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:44 PM   #36
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So few people I know of are planning for or even think about ER. It seems, as a rule, the way it works in North America is to work your whole life, making payments on houses, cars, boats, shopping for a hobby etc.
This is the way it works in many other countries too - I see it in Asia. In fact, many accept the official retirement age as the ideal age they should work until and some even want to work after that. To many, ER is for working women turned homemakers or for those who are not physically able to work. But to be fair, a lot of people over in Asia - specifically Hong Kong like to hold a job and keep busy. Also, cost of living is pretty high over here esp the accomodation.
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:50 PM   #37
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I was in Vietnam where I saw them working (hard!) from 6:00 am til late at night, everyday and yet they appear to be very happy, friendly people. Works for them. I'm way too lazy for that.
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Old 11-25-2010, 09:06 PM   #38
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Me too! I am still working part-time, but when it is no longer fun to me, I'll walk.

The truth is that no third-world country can provide welfare or free health care to its citizens. I can see how people are grateful just to have something to do to keep busy 12 hrs/day, to make a bit of living. When you do not have other choices, or have no one to complain to or to make demand, you just accept your fate and go on living each day without really being able to make plans for the future. They definitely do not run FIRECalc. Just something for me to reflect on and to be thankful for, on this Thanksgiving day.
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Old 11-26-2010, 10:18 AM   #39
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that makes sense
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:35 PM   #40
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I have seen a lot of articles and TV that suggest that we now have the "new retirement". This usually includes working part time in order to have enough income to live on. That's not my definition of retirement. But according to the media, this is supposed to be the new retirement we are all going to want, just on a whim, I suppose.
I sure as hell don't want that. Retirement to me = FREEDOM. Freedom to do whatever you want. Freedom from any obligations to anyone but yourself and those that matter to you. That means strangers can go **** off. I'm not making friends with you just because you deliberately put yourself in my path and say "hi" to me. Freedom from unnecessary activities that serve no purpose. That means pointless busy work that does nothing to improve any aspect of my life. That means pointless forced socializing where you make nice with someone just for the sake of it, having pointless conversations that serve no purpose, about things that don't matter. I don't want to hear what my co-workers did over the weekend. I don't care. If it has nothing to do with the job, don't even talk to me. How does talking about our weekends improve our ability to do our jobs? It's a waste of time and energy. I get paid to tolerate that bullshit from customers, but I shouldn't have to tolerate that from co-workers unless "mandatory forced socializing with co-workers" is explicitly written in the code of my profession. If I never ask you about your personal life, why the hell are you asking me about mine? Work is work. I'm not here to make friends, I'm just here to do my job. It's not my job to be your best friend. I'm not going to spend time with you outside of work. Get over it.
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