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Old 03-03-2008, 10:02 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Marquette View Post
1972 -- Clean Water Act (passed over veto)
Might want to proof-read that one a little closer if you're using it to show when republicans have done good for the environment
Admittedly, it was a quick & dirty citation - at least I went out & found a few
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:08 PM   #42
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Actually, my point was not really to point the finger as between Republican/Conservative and Democrat/Liberal, but to point out that the government can and has often acted as a force for good in our society. There is a fair streak of libertarianism in today's Republican party, so I often lump them together, but my real beef is with the steely-eyed followers of Ayn Rand who have "done it all themselves" and don't need us girly-men collectivists.

P.S. - the fact that a law was passed by Congress during a particular administration does not mean that the president or his party was responsible for it. Indeed, sometimes, as with the Clean Water Act, it was passed over a veto. (And I note that the entire Congress was controlled by Democrats while Nixon was president and the House was always controlled by Democrats while Reagan was president with the last two years having the House and Senate both in Democratic hands). So your list is misleading.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:14 PM   #43
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I don't think you understand - WE would be the rentiers - WE would be the petty tyrants with fiefdoms !
I had to go look that one up ("rentiers")

Hey, I like that - sounds like what I've been looking to be all my life!!
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:16 PM   #44
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.....steely-eyed followers of Ayn Rand who have "done it all themselves" and don't need us girly-men collectivists.
Yep, that would be me.
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Old 03-04-2008, 12:21 AM   #45
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Fascinatingly a good number of "done it all themselves" critters have trust funds and are white male WASPs (nothing against them personally) with accordant societal privileges. At least this is my personal experience. I knew quite a few libertarians at my $$$$$$$$$$$ college. I used to think it was an adolescent phase; you read Rand right after you run out of Tolkien. They're equally fantastic. One is better-written.

Nixon would indeed be viewed as a wild-eyed liberal today. That's correct! That's how badly things have skewed.

Marquette is also right that you can't just go by the names. GWB gave us "Clean Skies" that programmed for them to be dirtier, and devised a very sketchy logger-friendly "Healthy Forests" plan.


Quote:
didn't they already pay taxes (probably more than once) on that money when it was earned
At those levels, I'd be very, very, very surprised if they pay even half as high a percentage of their realized income in taxes as you do, Texarkandy. Here's just one way that I found in about ten seconds:
A Tax Break for the Rich Who Can Keep a Secret - New York Times
I fear not the dearth of others.

Just got off of a Right-Wing Sis discussion of how "of course" CA yacht owners should pay ZERO SALES TAX on their yachts.. because otherwise that might depress the yacht industry!!!!!!!

Try that argument the next time you buy a Ford Fiesta.
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Old 03-04-2008, 12:58 AM   #46
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I knew quite a few libertarians at my $$$$$$$$$$$ college. I used to think it was an adolescent phase; you read Rand right after you run out of Tolkien.
Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.

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Old 03-04-2008, 06:52 AM   #47
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At those levels, I'd be very, very, very surprised if they pay even half as high a percentage of their realized income in taxes as you do, Texarkandy. Here's just one way that I found in about ten seconds:
A Tax Break for the Rich Who Can Keep a Secret - New York Times
I fear not the dearth of others.
I expect the truth is the average person really has no idea how much these folks do or don't pay in taxes because it's so wrapped up in our convoluted tax code (created by our illustrious Democrat & Republican politicians) which results in just so much class warfare.
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Old 03-04-2008, 08:58 AM   #48
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Your example is highly arguable and completely without references considering the propagandistic assumptions you make - just for example:



how about

Nixon
1969 -- National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA)
1970 -- Major amendments to AQA
1970 -- EPA created
1972 -- Clean Water Act (passed over veto)
1972 -- Amendments to Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act

Reagan
1984 -- Hazardous and Solid Waste Amendments
1986 --SARA Title III/Emergency Planning and Community Right-to-Know Act
1986 --SDWA Amendments
1987 --Water Quality Act (CWA Amendments)
1988 -- FIFRA Amendments
1990 -- Clean Air Act Amendments (major changes)
1990 -- Federal Pollution Prevention Act (PPA)
1990 -- Oil Pollution Act

Bush 1
1992 -- Federal Facility Compliance Act

Bush 2
2002 -- Great Lakes Legacy Act


Theodore Roosevelt
1906 Food and Drug Act (Wiley Act)
(paved the way for creation of the FDA - meat inspection, product labelling, etc)

I could research & go on & on - but the point is that you can find "good things" done in all of the areas mentioned in this article by people of both party's & often via bi-partisan legislation - just as you can find negligent examples by both parties. Sure the Republicans have not always been "angels", nor are they "satan's spawn" & the same goes for the Dems - (Well, OK - maybe some of the neo-cons & far-left-wingers are Satan's spawn!!! )

The article you post seems to be just so much "propaganda" and I guess that's what many folks in this country like to swallow because it's all just so much "feel good" talk (be they "neo-cons" Republicans or "femi-nazi's Democrats")

But in summary I'll have to take it that you couldn't support Ron Paul because he is the anti-thesis of a Socialist. Nuff said - I can certainly understand that rationale.

What I'm probably more curious about is the viewpoint of the more capitalistic leaning small-gov folks on here as to what's wrong with Ron Paul.
What this post says is that Nixon, Reagan,Bush 1,Bush 2 and Theodore Roosevelt had some significant liberal aspects.
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:05 AM   #49
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Nixon would indeed be viewed as a wild-eyed liberal today. That's correct!
And some say Kennedy would be another nut ball right wing religious conservative.
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:23 AM   #50
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Marquette is also right that you can't just go by the names. GWB gave us "Clean Skies" that programmed for them to be dirtier, and devised a very sketchy logger-friendly "Healthy Forests" plan.
Actually, my point was that it's not good to post an environmental bill that was passed over the president's veto as proof that said president did something environmentally positive.

but, yes, it's worth knowing the language and impact of a bill.
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Old 03-04-2008, 01:14 PM   #51
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A stack of quotes regarding politics. Citations not verified, use at your own risk to back up your points:

A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which
debt he proposes to pay off with your money. --G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the
support of Paul. --George Bernard Shaw

Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer from poor people in rich
countries to rich people in poor countries. --Douglas Casey (1992)

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car
keys to teenage boys. --P.J. O'Rourke

Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to
live at the expense of everybody else. --Frederic Bastiat

I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.
--Will Rogers

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it
costs when it's free.
--P.J. O'Rourke

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean
politics won't take an interest in you. --Pericles (430 B.C.)

No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is
in session.--Mark Twain (1866)

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.
But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the
blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of
misery.
-Winston Churchill

The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the
taxidermist leaves the skin. --Mark Twain

We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is
like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the
handle.
--Winston Churchill

What this country needs are more unemployed politicians. --Edward
Langley

and finally, from our most recently deceased former US President (RIP),

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short
phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if
it stops
moving, subsidize it. -- Ronald Reagan (1986)

Talk is cheap-except when Congress does it.
The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy
appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other. --Ronald Reagan
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Old 03-04-2008, 01:23 PM   #52
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loki, you lost me as soon as you quoted G Gordon Liddy.

As for RuPaul, well, lets just say that it is self evident to ~95% of the electorate that he is "tetched in the head."
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Old 03-04-2008, 01:41 PM   #53
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WASPs (nothing against them personally) .
Gee, so kind of you to not have anything against Protestants personally. Did you bring up the religious aspect because you're Irish Catholic and still "hate those damn Protestants," because Italy is a heavily Catholic country or ??
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Old 03-04-2008, 01:58 PM   #54
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Marquette.. oops! Thanks for pointing that out!! I hadn't checked out the particulars there.

samclem, I like the "Republican is a Democrat who's had his wallet stolen," too.

I may have been a bit over the top in defining the libertarians in my personal circle.. but hey, they were young, smart, going to a good school.. so the "Master of the Universe" message clicked with them. They weren't old and needing health care; they knew they were on track for a high-paying job, and through a combination of youth, narcissism, and autism.. just weren't able to put themselves in anyone else's shoes. They were Golden Children.

On campus, there were Democrats and Libertarians.. I think some "libertarians" called themselves such just to be a "more cool" form of Republican in the post-Nixon era. Most people's PARENTS were Republicans.. so there was an element of 'rebellion' in such gestures as berating sales clerks and walking around everywhere barefoot all winter, as one libertarian acquaintance of mine was wont to do.

Understand that most people in the US don't know the ups and downs of socialism.They fear it for some of the wrong reasons; it's not (usually) a hellish, backward nightmare here in Europe. It's just a different form of society with different advantages and disadvantages. The biggest advantage for us is health care.. so it's also a matter of Personal Self-Interest. What I see happening in the US is that when Personal Self-Interest is expressed by the well-to-do.. everyone nods. But when Personal Self-Interest is expressed by "the plebians".. horror!

Unions!? Horror. Lobbyists and trade groups, normal.
Universal health care!? Horror. Eliminate estate tax on multi-billion estates, normal.
Soc. Security!? Horror. Tax breaks for Exxon, normal.
The message I've been getting from the recent R admin.s is that there is plenty of public money for Exxon and Blackwater and for Neil Bush's S&L bail out and now his educational software.. but not for you, the average worker or small entrepreneur. That's what exacerbates the class war. Maybe the money shouldn't be there in the first place, which is ok with me, to an extent.

I've been following the mortgage debacle, and was struck by Paulson's recent "don't walk away" message. It encourages the "little people" to adhere to a 'moral' standard that the big boys don't abide. When the bank gives a loan based on collateral (the house), and you have negative equity.. only a chump wouldn't walk away. The contract, to me, is "you don't pay => the bank takes the house". Take it, bank.. since you made the loan that acknowledged its theoretical worth.

So to make a long story short.. the element of libertarianism I like is that it acknowledges that people act in their self-interest. It's not hidden in the fake altruism that can emanate from either of the 2 major parties. They usually don't pander to religious extremists. I just think libertarians fall down on defining the real citizen "self" and his/her interests.

----
youbet.. sorry, this was just an observation.. and then I didn't want to be WASP-bashing so I added the caveat which seems to have made matters worse. If you have evidence, though, that the country and its major institutions and corporations are or have ever been since 1789 controlled by OTHER than white anglo saxon (male) protestants.. please direct me to that page in the history book. I am 1/2 Mayflower-y WASP, 1/4 Irish Catholic and 1/4 Italian Catholic if that helps you.
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:15 PM   #55
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<snip>
I don't understand why Ron Paul, and others like him are such advocates of state's rights. I thought the Libertarian position was one of individual rights. But many of these guys, including Paul, seem to hold the philosophy that the federal government has little power but the states have tremendous power that the federal government cannot limit. For example, Clarence Thomas is an extremely strong state's rights advocate. Under his construction of the constitution the federal government could not bar a state from enacting a state religion. That would be up to the states. No individual freedom there.
I consider myself more of a state's rightist for a few reasons. First, it is consistent with the founding principles, in that the Constitution details certain duties that are carried out federally, with the remainder handled by the states. I view the federal government as the body that overlooks the overreaching issues, such as national security, international agreements on trade and coalition building, etc. Why do you believe that the states should have less "power" than the federal government?

Second, and this is an angle that I've looked at through the lens of gay marriage, is that states have the ability to set laws that reflect the will of the people. The whole idea was the states would have different laws, different budgets, and were run independently. If you don't like some of the laws in your state, you can move! It's ridiculous (in my mind) that the federal government tries to enforce one policy on all the states on every minute issue. Why should the federal government have a say in speed limits, drinking age, marriage, etc? These seem to be state issues (lacking a clear directive otherwise). If a state government wants to allow 2 men to form a marriage, the state should be able to. If another state wishes to not marry 2 men, that's fine too. If another state decides on a definition of common law marriage that includes long-term roommates (co-ed or single sex), that's fine too!

Third, and this is not based on research, I trust a smaller government body (states) to waste less of my money. It is easier to hold local governments accountable for their actions. The bigger the organization, in my opinion, the more potential for waste. Furthermore, on most issues, I would trust a private company over a government controlled company (ie. transportation, schools, etc).

I specifically left out discussion of abortion, since it's a topic for another thread. The business of the government "defining life," and the policy that flows from it, is quite contentious. I will state my position, but you can probably surmise from the above paragraphs what that position would be. Just like their are different statutes among states to define murder, my inclination is to allow states to define life (and the irrevocable human rights associated with life). I believe life starts at 2.875 months, so I would be ok with abortions before that time.
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:29 PM   #56
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Third, and this is not based on research, I trust a smaller government body (states) to waste less of my money.
Haaaaaaahahahahaaaha!!! Pull the other one, its got bells on.
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:40 PM   #57
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Haaaaaaahahahahaaaha!!! Pull the other one, its got bells on.
Can you show me any quant data suggesting that bigger governments are less wasteful? I haven't done any research on it, but I'd be delighted to become more informed.
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:42 PM   #58
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Can you show me any quant data suggesting that bigger governments are less wasteful? I haven't done any research on it, but I'd be delighted to become more informed.
I rather doubt much research has been done. Maybe the Cato Institute or someone similar has a paper out there. But based on the shenanigans I have seen go on at the state and local levels, I would be surpreised to hear that these entities are any less efficient at p!ssing taxpayer money away than the feds. What I would expect to see is that there is more variability at the state and local levels.
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:48 PM   #59
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What I would expect to see is that there is more variability at the state and local levels.
Exactly. There is a lot of variation in local government. Local areas that care about the way they are governed can more easily elect local leadership to represent them (easier than electing their desired federal reps). A federal government is not the best representation for the average citizen, and it is more difficult to enact change on a national level. Your experience may differ. Any other sentences in my 4 paragraph post that you want to reply with a zinger?
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:54 PM   #60
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Exactly. There is a lot of variation in local government. Local areas that care about the way they are governed can more easily elect local leadership to represent them (easier than electing their desired federal reps). A federal government is not the best representation for the average citizen, and it is more difficult to enact change on a national level. Your experience may differ. Any other sentences in my 4 paragraph post that you want to reply with a zinger?
Hmmm, how about an example? Granted, this is just an anecdote, but since nobody has any hard data it will have to do.

I just got back from Puerto Rico. Despite what you may think, this is a place that resembles the state's rights/RuPaul notion of how to do things, in many ways. Voter turnout is exceedingly high for every election (90+%), and the citizens of that fair land so desire to live without the constraints of government that PR is believed to have the highest percentage of its total economy "off the books" of anywhere in the US. So I think we can agree that the good peope of Puerto Rico very much care about the way they are governed and are generally very actively involved in choosing who governs them.

Now go look at the state of PR's public finances (hint: ).
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