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Old 10-14-2010, 02:16 PM   #21
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You won't see this in rough water like the Straits of Juan de Fuca, or anyplace really where the boats can't just run home if the wind kicks up.

Aren't those little electic motors that are hung off the front used mostly on john boats?

(Which is not a boat full of guys heading out for a paid party. Craft in that employment are called yachts. )

No, the trolling motor on the front is just an electric motor so you can move the boat around a bit without starting the gas motor and scaring the fish.... some are pretty powerful... not enough to get the boat from here to there, but you can move it around....

Haha.... I have a BIL who goes fishing a lot... and I have been to a number of marina's and I have not seen this setup before... sure, I have seen boats with twin motors of the same size on the back... and a few with three.... (and heck, I even saw race boats with 4 big ones).... but never a 150 next to a 15 or 20HP....


I like the thinking of bbbam.... but then again, this is not one of those expensive boats that attract the bikini clad lasses...
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:37 PM   #22
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I'm pretty sure the extra, smaller outboard in the back is used mostly in the North, where trolling for walleye is popular.

I've almost never seen that setup in the South West or the South, where largemouth bass is the most popular gamefish. Bass fishermen don't typically troll, and bass tournaments prohibit trolling.
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:06 PM   #23
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I'm pretty sure the extra, smaller outboard in the back is used mostly in the North, where trolling for walleye is popular.

I've almost never seen that setup in the South West or the South, where largemouth bass is the most popular gamefish. Bass fishermen don't typically troll, and bass tournaments prohibit trolling.

OK... regional difference can be the big difference in people sightings... when I went fishing with my BIL, he never used his trolling motor... maybe because he does fish in at least one tournament a year... he just threw out the 'sock' so we did not drift much...
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:22 PM   #24
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I learn something every day.
I want to get into boating some day soon!
Judging from the happy-go-lucky expressions on the guys in the boat, it might save us all a lot of time & money if we just skipped straight ahead to the bikini-clad babes and beer coolers...
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Old 10-14-2010, 04:42 PM   #25
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Easy one - the outboard engine is in its fully raised position.

HOWEVER...

It would be impossible for the boat to be going fast enough to generate a wake with that engine in the fully raised position, so the engine was providing thrust to the hull at one point. My guess is the outboard engine clamps on the transom snapped and this picture was taken right after that happened.

F= ma rules once again
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:44 PM   #26
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Oh...I thought something was wrong with this pic because there aren't any bikini clad girls in the boat nor is a beer cooler visible...
That was my first thought - no beer and no babes! You beat me to it. Wicked minds think alike
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:59 PM   #27
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The smaller motor in back is not officially a trolling motor, it is referred to as a kicker motor (just google "kicker motor" and see). Its primary purpose is an emergency backup to get ya back home if the primary motor fails. A little trolling motor won't cut the cheese for that with any serious distance and ya don't need a kicker just for trolling.

Hmmm, I guess not too many serious boaters here. Go figure

BTW, it's ideal to have a separate fuel source for the kicker since a single bad fuel source could end up killing both motors.
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:18 PM   #28
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That was my first thought - no beer and no babes! You beat me to it. Wicked minds think alike
Sistah!
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:50 PM   #29
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I thought it was the new Prius boat, and that gasoline motor is out of the water because it just kicks in when the battery motor needs a boost.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:26 PM   #30
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Hmmm, I guess not too many serious boaters here. Go figure
I hope to never, ever, own the title of serious boater.

And I would say that around these parts, a big outboard would rarely be lined up next to a smaller kicker like this, but then again, what do I know--I only ride around in BIG boats, with inboard diesels, not these little gas-powered runabouts.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:52 PM   #31
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I'm pretty sure the extra, smaller outboard in the back is used mostly in the North, where trolling for walleye is popular.
Fairly common here in the Frozen North.
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:55 PM   #32
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Seen this type of combo on bigger lakes, but electric trolling motors are common on small lakes where the trolling motor would have enough power to get you home. I'm thinking of getting a trolling motor for my pontoon boat so I'll be able sneak up on some fish.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:34 AM   #33
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The smaller motor in back is not officially a trolling motor, it is referred to as a kicker motor (just google "kicker motor" and see). Its primary purpose is an emergency backup to get ya back home if the primary motor fails. A little trolling motor won't cut the cheese for that with any serious distance and ya don't need a kicker just for trolling.

Hmmm, I guess not too many serious boaters here. Go figure

BTW, it's ideal to have a separate fuel source for the kicker since a single bad fuel source could end up killing both motors.
On the inland lakes I fish, a "kicker" is used primarily for trolling, although it would also serve as an emergency backup if the main engine fails. A small 9.9hp kicker, common in Wis, Minn, etc., can move the boat along at a reasonable trolling speed that would be hard to reduce the main engine to. In deluxe setups, the kicker is linked to the main engine so the steering wheel controls both. In not so deluxe setups, someone sits in the back and steers via the tiller.

Electric motors mounted on the bow of the fishing boat are not really trolling motors, although they are frequently called such. They are positioning motors are are generally foot operated so that the fisher-person can steer and control speed while casting. They're used to slowly position the boat around the structure that is being cast to. This is an important distinction in states such as Wisconsin where motor trolling is not allowed on many lakes. It's OK to cast while slowly manuvering around structure but not OK to leave the lure in the water while moving constantly ahead. That would be trolling. (A Wis game warden and I had a long, detailed discussion about this a few years back........ )
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:18 AM   #34
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It would be impossible for the boat to be going fast enough to generate a wake with that engine in the fully raised position, so the engine was providing thrust to the hull at one point. My guess is the outboard engine clamps on the transom snapped and this picture was taken right after that happened.

F= ma rules once again
Uh..WRONG!!
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:59 AM   #35
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Not so Astute after all!

The Top Five Most Humiliating Details About a British Submarine’s Capture by Some Mud | VF Daily | Vanity Fair

Any comments, Nords?
Driving lessons, maybe?
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Old 10-23-2010, 06:21 AM   #36
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Uh..WRONG!!
Hey it looked good on paper.
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:03 AM   #37
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Any comments, Nords?
Driving lessons, maybe?
Yeah, I always look to Vanity Fair for their analysis of defense issues...

I'll cut those guys a generous helping of slack. British Navy officers have separate communities for nuclear engineering and ship driving, and their OODs are some of the world's best. Far better than the U.S. system where nukes rule the submarine force.

IIRC the ship was doing a personnel transfer. Those suck. Nobody likes them and you don't do them very often so you're not very good at it. You have to come into shallow restricted waters, with tides & winds, and the closer you get ashore/inland then the quicker the small boat can get out to you. The OOD is busy dealing with people topside and making sure the waves don't wash anyone overboard while the CO is busy with VIPs and other trivia. The XO and the Engineer are yammering to have fresh fruits/vegetables and spare parts delivered along with the passengers. The ops officer wants all the radio masts raised to get caught up on message traffic, and then he wants to talk about current events with the CO/XO/Nav. The navigator is the unhappiest guy on the boat because nobody wants to run aground but nobody wants to be in the middle of the shipping lanes or other deeper/offshore water, either.

The media will always play up the sensational nuclear (or anti-nuclear) aspect of a collision or grounding. That's actually the strongest part of the sub and the least likely source of problems. The white smoke in that video, however, indicates that they're snorkeling, which either indicates training or (more likely) seawater suctions fouled with mud. Since cooling water may be in short supply they're probably trying to reduce their need for reactor power by letting the diesel handle some of the electrical load. But it needs cooling water too, and that mud will mess up a lot of seawater pumps.

Submarines are surprisingly difficult to maneuver on the surface. Half the rudder is out of the water so there's not much force to change direction. There's only one small auxiliary propulsion unit and it has to be lowered beneath the keel so it may have been damaged in the grounding. It doesn't have much power to whip the stern around, either. The turbines are tremendously powerful but you don't want to ding up the screw on the mud/gravel and you don't want to build up momentum or have a command misinterpreted. Sudden acceleration or deceleration also causes the stern to squat down a foot or two, which is undesirable in shallow water. It's like operating a Ferrari in a McDonald's drivethrough by telling the driver not to use his brakes.

If you're gonna run aground then the rudder is the best thing to do it on. Relatively rugged, less damage, easily repaired, cheaper than sonar domes or screw blades. But they're gonna waste a couple weeks in drydock.

Having said all that, the CO/XO should have been aware of all of these issues and should have adequately trained/prepared their crew to handle them. Even a propulsion/helm casualty should have been accounted for. The charts were probably adequate for the task and the bottom topography was unlikely to be changed by storms or currents.

You can get away with dragging the rudder on on a sandbar once in a while but there's no excuse for going hard aground. I suspect the change of command has already occurred...
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Old 10-24-2010, 01:53 PM   #38
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Gee thanks Nords!

Now, what's an OOD? What's an XO?

CO = Commanding Officer, yes?

I don't know nuttin 'bout this stuff

To me, XO means Turner Syndrome
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Old 10-24-2010, 02:03 PM   #39
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:44 PM   #40
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Gee thanks Nords!
Now, what's an OOD? What's an XO?
CO = Commanding Officer, yes?
I don't know nuttin 'bout this stuff
To me, XO means Turner Syndrome
Officer of the Deck, pronounce "oh-oh-dee", driving from the front end of the boat. His counterpart back in the engineroom is the Engineering Officer of the Watch, pronounced "ee-yow", which is what the OOD usually says after getting a phone call from the EOOW.

XO is Executive Officer, pronounced "ex-oh", or what the British (and Star Trek) refer to as "Number One". He's actually the #2 officer in charge after the CO ("see-oh"). I never personally knew any XOs with Turner Syndrome but that would explain a lot about one or two of them.

Nav = Navigator and Eng (actually pronounced "enj" in the submarine force) is the Engineer. Weps is for "Weapons Officer", which I personally preferred to the wimpy-sounding "CSO" acronym for "Combat Systems Officer". For some reason one of my troops branded me for life by referring to me as "Wild Wild Weps". The moniker caught on so I avenged myself by helping him get his officer's commission.

By the nature of their duties, XOs and Engs are also frequently known as "those God$%^&ed mother#@$%ing sonsof#$%^&es", which terms are used most often by COs, Navs, Weps, OODs, and EOOWs...
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